Full Episode Transcript

Ashley Blackington (00:01)

Welcome to the AND/BOTH Podcast. Today I have my very first guest, which I am so excited about. This is Rachel May from Mama's Cup of Ambition. And she is here to talk all things motherhood and all of the other facets of herself. So welcome, Rachel, thank you for being here.

Rachel Mae (00:23)

Thank you so much.

Ashley Blackington (00:29)

So I wanted to start off with you introducing yourself, talking a little bit about yourself and whatever you want the people to know.

Rachel Mae (00:37)

Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm, I want to say, first of all, I'm so excited and honored that I am your first podcast guest. I, obviously I'm a podcast host and I am obsessed with podcasts and I'm such an advocate and cheerleader for new podcasts. It's always exciting to see new shows coming out that I know I'm going to be able to binge listen to. So I'm really excited for this show. I'm Rachel Mae. I am a mama of two. I've got two little boys. And before becoming a mama, I had a career as a country singer songwriter. I lived in Nashville for a bit and really kind of went all in on having a career as a musician. I'm the daughter of a blues musician, so I kind of grew up around music and just knew from a very young age that was something that I really deeply connected with and music was always just sort of this comfort for me. And so I really went after that as a career and kind of put off having kids because I was fed this line that, you know, having kids would mean the death of my career. And so I just turned 41 and I have two toddlers. So I got started a lot later in life having my babies. And now I'm kind of in this like in between, of seeing if I can have and both. Like, can I be mama and were they right? Did that really mean the death of my career or can I sort of like reimagine what my identity is? And so I host a podcast called Mama's Cup of Ambition and that's sort of the thing, the place where I show up to talk about that with other mamas who are exploring their big dreams and ambitions with little kids in tow. 

So in a nutshell.

That's me.

Ashley Blackington (02:34)

I love it. So the sort of the premise for the show, I know I've talked a little bit about it in the past is that the idea is that we, again, that line, exactly what you're speaking to is like, you can do all the things that you want and be all the things and launch that career, but as soon as you have kids, that stuff is sort of all supposed to just fall by the wayside. Like your one solid responsibility goal, you know, marker for success is this role of motherhood. And I think for so long, we've been evolving in the transition away from that. Think about a few generations ago, you've got people that are getting married at 18 and having babies. So that essentially is your career development, you know, or your expected career development. And now people are getting married later.

Rachel Mae (03:19)

Right.

Ashley Blackington (03:31)

People are having kids later. People are not having eight kids as a norm, or six kids as a norm. I have to be careful on how big family I go, because I have four. So I still run into people who are like, what, what are you doing? I'm like, it's great, I love it. But I think that what is happening is that there's just sort of this growing seed that one generation is passing on to the next about how our eyes are open to the fact that we're not just all running in service of this one tunnel where everything else gets blocked out. But I think too we all individually realize that, right? Like you realize individually after your kids are born, like, oh wait, I wanna do, I still wanna do music.

Rachel Mae (04:31)

Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (04:31)

I still want to do, you know, I still want to start my own business. I still want to have a podcast. I still want to do all of those things. How am I, am I supposed to want to do that? Because that's, you know, a lot of, um, societal pressure and nuances. And if I do want that, how do I make that happen? Because the world is not set up in this way.

Rachel Mae (04:55)

Yeah, yeah, I feel that on a soul level. I feel like as somebody who's always been, or very much identified as someone who is super ambitious and just like, if I have an idea, I will just like jump and start and figure out the details later. And having kids definitely shook all of that up in a great way, but also in some like really hard ways where like now I have to run into the fire and see what happens because I've got two tiny humans who are relying on me. There is a lot of assumed responsibility. I'm very thankful to have a partner who shares the weight of a lot of the responsibilities, but I'm also somebody who likes to be very independent and just kind of do things on my own. So I feel like motherhood has kind of forced me to learn how to ask for help. I say that fully knowing I'm a work in progress. I am still not very good at asking for help, but also having feeling like I have to ask for permission, which is something that I really buck up against because it's like, I want to just do the things that light me up. Like I want to start a podcast. 

I want to just like clear my schedule and do the thing or I want to make music, I want to just be able to clear my schedule and run in that direction. And so really realizing that I don't believe that those record execs were right when they said that having a family would be the death of my career. I don't believe that, but I also recognize it is very different now. And just reckoning with that is a really, it's this metamorphosis, right? It's like you, when your children are born, the version of yourself that you were is reborn into something else and really trying to reconcile what that looks like and to not resist it. 

I feel like sometimes too we hear this like, be a boss, babe, and do all the things. And then I identify with that sometimes, like, yeah, I am ambitious, I wanna do all these things. And then sometimes I feel this really strong pull of like, but I wanna be in my motherhood era. And what does that mean about me if I lean more into this like nurturing mother side of myself, like how do I find that balance? So I love that you're honoring and holding space for this conversation because I think it's, I know this isn't something unique to me. I know this is something that as parents and caretakers, this is something that we all experience. 

I think it's a really important conversation to have. And then that sort of lifts the veil and makes you realize this is not, I'm not broken and there's not something that I need to fix, like my identity. That's kind of how I felt when I first stepped into motherhood was like, well, who am I now? I used to know exactly how to sum up my like little bio in an elevator pitch, I could do it right away. And now it's like, everything feels just sort of fluid and different and that's okay. And I'm so not alone in that process. And I think when I was first experiencing it I really did feel very alone in it. And I thought this is just a me thing, everybody else must have it figured out. And what I'm starting to realize is like, oh no, we're all just trying to figure this out together.

Ashley Blackington (08:19)

No one, no one has it figured out. Spoiler alert, no one has it figured out. And I think that's the problem, right? Is like, that's where, that's where we, we get siloed as moms in things. Like we, we live in such a connected world, but no one's really connected anymore. Like you go on social media and it's everyone's highlight reel.

Rachel Mae (08:36)

Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (08:49)

So you’re like, “I'm having a terrible day,” everybody else on here has matching outfits and a vacation and like this like deluxe birthday party situation. And you're thinking, “I couldn't even begin to think of what picture I would put on the internet of like myself right now or my life or whatever.” I think that that's you know if we only ever just show up with like the prom dress on we're just kicking this down the line.

What I kind of came up against, I guess, visualizing wise is like, you know, when you're at a bowling alley and like people are just learning how to bowl, so they put the bumpers up. I kind of feel like sometimes, and it may sound weird, but like, like the kids, when you have kids, they are the bumpers. And that doesn't mean that you can't bowl anymore. It just means that you can't skip over to like three lanes over, which is, you know, ideal. But like, you're, you're in a track.

Rachel Mae (09:27)

Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (09:46)

Now you're in a track and you're going towards the same goals as you were going towards before, but you can't, you can't sort of go sideways and, and do that. And maybe that just speaks to my bowling skills more than anything.

Rachel Mae (09:51)

Yeah. Yeah, I love that visual. And you know what? I'm like such an awful bowler. I've even before kids like I needed those bumpers. But I can totally see that visual of like, you're so right. It's like, before there was freedom of like, I could get bored with the bowling and be like, I'm gonna go to that air hockey table back there. And that trying to just sort of like, reconcile the fact that like, it looks different. But that doesn't mean that you can't still expand into those things that are calling you. It just has a different aesthetic for a while.

Ashley Blackington (10:34)

Exactly. And I think too, like the stuff that, you know, when you speak to like the social media part or the, you know, meeting with other people part is like, we still only really have these surface level conversations about motherhood. Like when we meet with other moms, we don’t have these deeper conversations about motherhood. And so if we don't have these conversations about like, like music, if you don't have these conversations about music, you're not really like working on preventing the atrophy of that muscle in you. 

So creating spaces where you can do those things, it's like I would go out for dinner with people that we all had kids and everyone would say, I'm so glad to be here, but then all we would do is talk about kids. And I remember sitting at the table being like, I talk to my kids, I talk about my kids. That's all I do, but like, is this all I'm supposed to do?

Rachel Mae (11:28)

Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (11:31)

And so it's just this weird like, is this thing on? Kind of feeling that happens.

Rachel Mae (11:37)

Yeah. And I think there really is something to I'm experiencing this right now, actually, because so for me, music is like, it's a part of my essence, right? It's a part of my like, authenticity. And I've sort of put it on the back burner. And I knew I was going to be putting it on the back burner for a moment like to start a family because for so long, it was the reverse. I had my family on the back burner and I put off having kids.

And when I decided I really want to start a family, I recognized that I was going to, I could still experience music in some ways, but the way like- I'm not having a band right now, I'm not going out and playing gigs at these bar rooms the way I used to, and I'm definitely not touring right now. So just recognizing that it was gonna look different. I sort of put it on the back burner, but I think there's really something that happens where I'm kind of at this place where my kids are getting to be to the age where they still very much need me. Like, right now I've got a three and a half year old and an 18 month old. So they still very much need me for everything and I'm at home with them. And so I'm in the thick of it, right? 

But also I'm recognizing, like every once in a while I think, well, maybe music was just something that I did and maybe that's not something I do anymore. Like maybe that was just a season and I can feel okay with how I used to create music. But then I pick up my guitar or I hear a song and something like in the deepest part of my soul is just like screaming, like this is not something you can detach from, it's a part of you. And so for me right now, it's just finding this, giving myself space, which is so incredibly hard with tiny humans at home. 

I can't just sit down and like ruminate on writing a song the way that I used to be able to. But it's not just that I'm up against. What I'm realizing that I'm up against is that the further away I get from doing those things, like you're saying, of flexing those muscles and being around other musicians and talking about music and writing music and performing music, the further away I get from that, the harder it's getting to get the courage to jump back in because there's all of this fear and resistance that comes up of like, you're so different now. 

Like, what are you going to sing about? What are you going to talk about? Are you even going to know how to do that anymore? And so I'm bucking up against this, like, not only the actual demands of motherhood that are real and are a part of my everyday life, but also this fear cropping up to say like, I don't know if you know how to do that anymore. It's been so long.

And then this part of me that's saying, you have to do this. This is a part of who you are. You have to find a way to incorporate it. So it's this weird swirling of all of these different elements in my life. And I'm having to really find a way to like, right now, that for me looks like, no, I can't just tuck away and go on like a songwriting retreat right now, because that's not a part of my story at this moment. However, I can pick up my guitar and play. Say, “I'm going to play two songs.” And usually two songs will turn into like a whole living room set. 

And then I, but I feel in that moment, like I remember playing those songs I feel connected to that part of me that is me. And also like my kids see it and we've got multiple guitars sitting in my living room. So my kids will grab their guitars or they're dancing. And it's like, I don't have to separate myself from them to do this. I can do it with them in tow. And in fact, that's how I grew up. My dad is a blues musician. He was playing and I remember going to his rehearsals. He was doing the thing with me watching. And I think that heavily influenced my love for music and how I got to this as well. So I think giving ourselves permission to say, “maybe I can't do it exactly how I used to but how can I step into this right now so that I can feel that connection.”Just little by little keep growing and expanding that space to allow myself to have the part of me that exists and also to not feel like I have to do it separate from my kids completely. They're allowed to see it and I'm allowed to claim that space and just say, hey, mama's gonna play her guitar right now and I'm gonna sing because I really love that. And then when we're done.

Like we can go do whatever you guys want to do, but right. Because it's like, it's, it's also like claiming that's exactly it. Because it's like, as soon as I pick up the guitar, like you can bet all of the sudden, there's a whole like menagerie of needs that crop up that everybody needs something from me. And so, and, but I recognize that also as resistance and it's like, it's okay for me to say like, “Hey, this is what I need,” not just on a like, “hey, mama needs a shower.”

Like, yes, I need those things. Mama needs nutritious food, but I also need creativity in my life. And I need a way to express myself and to be anchored into the things that make me feel the most like myself. And I think giving ourselves permission to do that, even if it's not exactly how you think it's supposed to look or how it used to look is such a freeing thing. And it helps to kind of shorten that. The curve of “Well, do I step into this?” 

I'm getting like more and more afraid of it the further away I get from it. And so it's like keeping yourself sort of anchored into it. So when you are ready or you do have the space to fully jump back in, in whatever way that looks for you, that it's not like you're coming back after being completely removed from something. Cause I think that just feels so much more terrifying.

Ashley Blackington (17:35)

It's like you're not learning how to play the guitar again. You're on a pause or you're in the slow lane versus being on the highway.

Rachel Mae (17:38)

Right. And in a way, it's like all those years of playing bar rooms and having like, somebody drunk coming up to me like yelling out play sweet home Alabama. Like that it's like in a lot of ways that kind of primed me for having toddlers because it's like, it's I'm playing in a living room. Yeah, it's just like different requests play old McDonald had a farm but it's like, it's the same thing.

Ashley Blackington (18:00.47)

Right. Give me some goldfish.

Ashley Blackington (18:07)

Uh-huh

Rachel Mae (18:14)

So all of those years of playing those like dive bars kind of primed me for having to be able to like not get distracted by all of it. So there's always a through line there, right? Like your experiences before kids prepare you and set you up for those experiences with kids.

Ashley Blackington (18:26)

Yeah, for sure. And I think too, like, sometimes it's easy to say, like, I don't, it would be so much harder for me to try and pursue the thing that I wanna do right now. So I'll just wait, and I'll just wait, and I'll just wait. And then that just adds on. But then also one thing that I try and remind myself is like, if I don't show my kids what it looks like to pursue my thing, then I am doing my part to perpetuate that idea that you have to be lost completely. You have to be, it's not even lost. You have to opt to just be in motherhood above all else. So I just went to New York City. I just got back a couple days ago from my first trade show, the NY Now summer market.

Rachel Mae (19:18)

Amazing. Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (19:23)

There's many, whatever we're calling it, large trade show where I'm launching wholesale

and retail distribution for the planning products that I make. And I was getting ready to go and my kids were all like, mom, I don't want you to go. Like, you know, I've never left for five days and my oldest is 10. And so I've never been gone for five days. And they were all really like not having a great time with it. And I said to my daughter the night before I left, I said, I can't tell you to chase your dreams and I can't tell you to do the thing that makes you happy and to do the thing that fulfills you and to do, you know, to sort of like dream big and go in pursuit and walk towards and all of that and not do it myself. You have to show people through your own actions what you mean and you have to, you have to show your children what that is.

Rachel Mae (20:12)

100%. Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (20:22)

It is really easy to say “be all that you can be” and do all of the things and, you know, be fearless and yada and even that like the boss babe stuff like even that. But if you if you don't actually do the thing, then it's just it's just another infomercial.

Rachel Mae (20:41)

Totally. And I think there's a point where I don't want my kids when they're older to look at my life and to be like, wow, mom was doing all of these things. Look at all of the things she was going after and doing all of this stuff. And then she had us and everything stopped and I don't ever want them to wonder. Like if I decide to walk away from one of my ambitions or pivot to something else, like that's fully on me. I don't ever want them to think that like motherhood caused me to abandon my dreams and parts of myself and that it's because of them. 

I want them to see that I may be reconnecting with those things and finding parts of myself in a different way, but I'm doing that for me and like you're saying also so that they will see. And I'm just able to show up more fully when I have those moments. I can tell when I've not been doing anything sort of ground myself in the parts of me that, yes being a mom that is a part of me and I'm it's a part of me that I love, but there are so many other facets. 

When I'm not doing something to sort of ground into those other facets of myself I am cranky I am a short fuse like everything bugs me. I feel like I'm so overloaded by all of the sensory of the house. And it's like, I have no patience. I don't want to play and build blocks or Legos where when I even just have an opportunity to like, pull back and record a podcast, and I have a conversation where I'm not being interrupted. Like yesterday, my husband and I were trying to talk and my son. He's like literally standing there going “mom, mom, mom, mom” on repeat. 

I'm like, “hold on, babe, we're trying to have a conversation here.” And it's like, my husband and I are learning how to like talk over this just constant noise. And I recognize to like my husband has ADHD. And so like his capacity to be able to really focus on a conversation when there's a lot going on is like, pretty much impossible. And I can see him like really trying to listen to me and also scan the room of like, how do we put the mute button on this kid for a second? 

So being able to pull away from that for a minute and have a conversation like this that's not interrupted. When I go back out and rejoin my family today, I'm going to be so much more available and the better version of myself. When I sit down for a minute and play my guitar or listen to something that inspires me or step away from the house and have an experience where I get to be a version of myself. I return to my family a much better, more present mom and partner and all of the things that I aspire to be. And it's so it's like not only am I showing them through my actions what it means to go after your dreams, but also that one of my ambitions is to be a very present and patient mother. And I can't be that if I'm not pouring those same things into myself. If I don't mother myself in the way that I mother them, I make sure that they have stimulating activities and things that get them into an artistic, creative state and that they have nutritious food to eat and that they're getting enough sleep.

I don't do all of it perfect by any means, but I'm really aware of all of their needs and I'm always trying to meet them. I need those things too. And so it's not selfish for me to claim that space and mother, yeah, to mother myself the way that I mother my family. And that's really been something that I have had to sort of start to rewire in my mind because I tend to put myself just at the very bottom of the totem pole as I think so many of us mothers do.

Ashley Blackington (24:30)

You have to take care of yourself.

Rachel Mae (24:51)

Once I get, we think there's like this elusive moment where everything is going to like mellow out. Like once I get everybody else's needs taken care of, then I will take time to go after whatever it is that's calling me. And it's like, guess what? It just gets busier. There is never that calm moment where you're just going to be like, now I have all of this space to come in. Something else will fill that space if you don't claim it.

Ashley Blackington (25:15)

You have to, yeah.

Rachel Mae (25:17)

And so that's been... a real challenge for me and it is still a real challenge for me to recognize I have to take that space and not feel guilty about it and not expect that some like vortex is going to open and I'm just going to suddenly have a free day once a week. Yeah, it just doesn't happen. And so that's, I think has been a real struggle for me and just something that I'm really trying to work on and to establish for myself. I love hearing how other folks are doing it because I feel like I don't have it dialed in. I don't do it perfectly, but I feel like the more that we speak about this and share our true desires and the things that we are craving and trying, the more it frees up all of us collectively to claim that for ourselves. I think that's really important. Like we don't have the village that maybe everyone talks about or existed at some point in time, but we do have the ability to lift each other up collectively by being honest and transparent about what we're struggling with and what we're craving and by just starting to stake a claim on a piece of it. If that even makes any sense.

Ashley Blackington (26:32)

Right. And I think, yeah, no, I think you're spot on. I think also the thing that people, the maybe one of the touch points is like, a lot of times people like they prescribe your needs to you. And so like right now you have kids, my youngest is three right now. So when my kids were little, you know, like at the beginning of the pandemic, I had a newborn, a two-year-old and two kids in early elementary school. 

My needs feel tethered to planet Earth were very different than they are now. You know, like it's when you've got kids that are under two, you're talking about more of those physical like, I need to shower, I need to feed myself, I need to like, I need to not be cleaning bottles or you know, any of that. The things that you do sort of on that hamster wheel of life at that point in time, that's where you step away from. But I think that what people do is they say, like, they just blanket it. And motherhood is so multifaceted that, like, if you're, you know, one of your kids is brand new, well, I guess brand new is a bad idea because they generally sleep all day for the first little bit. But, when you've got kids that you're trying to learn how, they're trying to learn how to nap during the day in their crib you're not gonna be like doing your best Dolly Parton in the middle of the living room, right? So it's like, just shoot yourself in the foot. So how do you honor that side of you? Maybe that's different. Maybe that's more like lyrics, maybe that's more whatever, however that all works. 

And I think that we still get hung up on this idea of like doing things right and doing things wrong and how we need to have this fully fleshed out, fully formed idea about exactly what this means to us before we get started on it, right? Like, we have to know exactly how we're gonna like fill our own cup. And I just think that also speaks to, you're saying like the more you get away from the intensity that you had with country music before you had kids it feels scary to jump back in. But then we also do that to ourselves when it comes to like taking care of ourselves. Like this whole marketing thing about self-care being bubble baths and stuff like that just drives me up the wall because I'm like, there's no, like the equivalent of that is not a four hour golf game. Like it's not, there, there is no equivalency in any of these things. And so if you don't have, you, you need that open space. So you don't need like prescribed space. 

Rachel Mae (29:06)

Right.

Ashley Blackington (29:26)

You need open space to be like, all right, I'm gonna pause for a minute and I'm gonna like think about what I actually wanna do. If that's a shower, good for you. If that's writing a song, even better. If that's like laying on the floor in a full out starfish, like tether away. But it's just this idea that like, we have to have this group project fully fleshed out before we're able to like take that space. And I think that's hard.

Rachel Mae (29:52)

Yeah. I think too, like, it's interesting as you're talking about, like, the nap time, because I feel like for me, in the very beginning, it was like, okay, my son is napping. How productive can I be right now? What can I do? And in my, like, mom brain, I'm like looking around the house and I'm like, okay, well, I mean, I should do the dishes, but then I, maybe I should take a shower. Like, you start going through, like, I have this little window of time where hopefully he's going to sleep.

Maybe he's gonna wake up, but what should I do first? And feeling like, oh, but I need to be creative. And it's like, you're trying to like force something or turn it on when really like, maybe what I need is just some quiet spaciousness or to just sit down. But it feels so counterintuitive to rest because I feel like there's also this narrative of like, you can do it all and you can be a mompreneur and you can hustle and have the babies. And like, I, there's a certain part of that, that really resonates with me because I do want to do all kinds of things. But also, what's the cost of that and how do you give yourself clearance to just be like, actually, maybe it's a lot of pressure to put on myself to try to be so productive and to have it all mapped out. 

Because whenever I've tried to do that during nap times and say, this is what I'm going to accomplish while my kid's napping, more often than not, that's when they don't nap the full amount of time that they normally would. And then I feel frustrated and irritated. I'm like annoyed with them because they're waking up and it's like, my expectation of what I can accomplish in that window of time. It's like, if you have spaciousness somewhere else in your schedule, and this is where I think like, it's, it's so vital to have partnership with whoever it is that you're raising children with where you both have time carved out that's just for you, that's not crammed into the expectation of my kid's gonna sleep. I've found when I'm trying to cram my quote unquote self-care or creativity or whatever else I'm trying to do into nap time, inevitably it goes sideways and then I'm frustrated and it's not good for anyone versus when I know I have a time and space where I'm like, “hey, I'm going to be recording podcasts or I'm going to be sitting down to work on some music or do whatever it is that I need to do and I need you to handle everything with the kids. Just assume that I'm off the clock for a minute.” Again, I am able to then come to that time more freely and return back to my mom role.

Ashley Blackington (32:35)

Yeah.

Rachel Mae (32:48)

in a much more expanded way and so much more grounded. And I feel like the times where my husband and I both have that working, where we're both getting that, it's so magical. And I feel like we kind of do it for a cycle or a season, and then we sort of fall off because again, things happen. Somebody will get sick or some new element in our schedule changes, and we have to sort of recalibrate. And I can really tell when I’m getting away from having my basic needs met, that I just start to feel like this low grade anxiety and just sort of frustration, like everything sets me off. And, I feel like if you recognize that and can really like kind of keep coming back, you have to keep advocating for yourself to have that time. 

There's a part of me that wishes I didn't have to, like, I just want it to be a given that like, of course I'll have time to do the things that I need to do and want to do. But the truth is like we have to continually recalibrate and advocate for that to be a part of our existence so that it doesn't just fall by the wayside because right, like once kids get into school, then there's like a whole other host of responsibilities and things.

Ashley Blackington (34:04)

and emails. I'm getting all my back to school emails right now. I'm like, “I have so much homework and I don't even go to school anymore.”

Rachel Mae (34:12)

Oh God, I'm not there yet and I've heard about it and it's like mentally gearing up for it. But that's what we kind of touched on this before. You think that there will be this point where all of a sudden the schedule is just going to free up, but it just changes into different priorities and different demands and needs. And so advocating for that time and that space and trying to not just squeeze it into those moments that are so unpredictable. Because having kids, it just is, it's such an unpredictable thing. Like you cannot, and I think that's part of it too, that's really been a challenge for me is letting it exist. That, “hey, I can make a good plan” and try to assume that like, I'm going to have all of these boxes ticked, but then you never know what's going to happen in motherhood and with children. 

So you have to just also be like flexible and unattached to the outcome. And so trying to find that like, I don't know if balance is the right word, but finding that middle ground where you are advocating for your needs and also like giving yourself a little bit of grace and flexibility that sometimes the best laid plans are just going to go sideways.

Ashley Blackington (35:26)

Yeah, I heard Ali Wong the comedian, she was saying “it takes so little for a dad to be considered a good dad and it takes so little for a mom to be considered a crappy mom.” And it's just like, I think that that's the crux right there, right? It's like somebody gets sick, you're like, well, that's me. Or like something happens, you're like, well, that's me. And so like, we take that even if you make that time. That's the first thing that we get carved into. And it's like, how do you put concrete around that so that you can still say, okay, I still need this time? I mean, and I don't mean concrete like time, like Tuesday at two, you know, whatever. But I think like the podcast, I love the example of the podcast because it's like there are hard boundaries around it, right? Like, your kids can't be sitting on your lap because someone is there and you know, it that creates this space where you're like, okay, no, we are gonna like this is happening. I have like made an appointment. I have done this, you know, yada yada. And there is a difference in knowing that you can't be interrupted because you always have, you know, people flexing into your space and they people flexing into your time. And you're like, “Why is this, like, why is my boundary made out of Play-Doh, but everyone else's boundary is made out of titanium?” 

Rachel Mae (36:59)

Yeah, I know. And we saw that so much right in the pandemic. It was like, who was carrying the weight of most of that when all of a sudden kids were homeschooling and there was so much. It was like, we saw moms leaving the workforce in droves, right, because it was just sort of like expected that like, this is going to fall on your plate. And that's not to like say that the dads and the men didn't step up but there was definitely a disparity in how the load was distributed. And things in service of family typically tend to fall on mom's plate. And you're right. That is the first thing to go if you've got that little space carved out for taking care of yourself or doing something for you. It's like, well, that's the disposable thing. That's the thing that we can just scoot off to the side and fill that space with something else. 

And again. Like I've said it how many times in this, but like now all of a sudden then I'm not showing up in the way that I want to because I'm on edge and I'm crabby and everything bothers me. And then like for me personally, I can't say that this is everybody's experience, but I know for me, like then in those moments when my needs aren't being met and I'm a short fuse and I'm like snapping at my kids and then repairing and I feel like I'm repairing all the time.

Ashley Blackington (38:25)

And that's even worse, right? You've like doubled down. Like you're like apologizing for apologizing. It's yeah. I mean, I'm Canadian, so we apologize over everything. Just it's just a reflex. And so it's like, I apologize for my apology. And you're like, my God.

Rachel Mae (38:40.511)

Yes! And then it's like, even after I'm like repairing with my kid, I'm like, still in that shame cycle. Right. And then now I'm just like, I haven't met the need and now I'm in shame. And I'm like, God, I'm like snapping at my kids and I'm snapping at everyone around me. And I'm snapping at myself because I'm like, you should be like able to take a deep breath and regulate your emotions better.

Ashley Blackington (38:47)

But you still haven't met that need.

Rachel Mae (39:09)

And it's like, it just isn't...no good for anyone and yet...

Ashley Blackington (39:11)

Don't you wish you had like Brene Brown on speed dial then? It'd be like, hey, listen, I need, I need someone to put a directional on for me because I'm in a spiral. I'm dizzy, help me.

Rachel Mae (39:15)

Oh my God. I'm in a shame spiral. Yes. And I will say, I'm getting a lot better at catching those moments and recognizing them. And you mentioned Brene Brown and one of the things that I love that she always says is like, the story I'm telling myself is. And being able to sort of like pull back from those moments and be like, okay. What's really going on here? What's at the root of this? Yes, I just snapped at my kid, and now I feel awful, and they feel awful. And we've repaired, and we've had a moment, and tried to center, and now they seem OK, but I'm still dysregulated, because now I feel in shame. What is happening here, and why am I so off kilter? What is happening? And when you pull back, and you keep pulling back, it almost always is because I'm running on empty and that's not sustainable. 

So think about this with like our phones, we plug our phones in and we let them charge up, right? And if we don't, like when the battery dies, that's it. You can't force it to charge faster. You have to wait for it to recharge. But most often, like we let it charge up before it gets to dead battery, at least for me, I hate the dead battery. So I'm like plugging that sucker in. But it's like, for ourselves, it's the same way. We also need moments to recharge and build our energy back up. We can't just keep going. And if we would let ourselves burn out to that point where it's a dead battery, it's a longer wait time before you're back in the game. And it's just over time that's going to be harder on the battery, right? And the phone's going to suffer for it. 

The same thing is true for us. I know it's so much easier said than done, but it's so important for us to recognize like when we have those moments where things feel like they're imploding or exploding around us, that it's not because we're bad parents. Like more likely it's that like you're not having a need met that is a core need, that you're probably making sure your children are having met and trying to dial back in for that is, it's critical. It's a really important piece of the experience of motherhood. And something like we didn't have to do that so much, right? When we didn't have kids, it's like you would still, your body would tell you, especially boundaries and stuff with work if you were burning out. But I feel like even more so now when you've got children who are depending on you and they're expecting you to show up and their needs don't just stop because you're burnt out. Like, it's not like, oh, mom's having a hard day today and now all of a sudden nobody needs something for me. Like that just doesn't happen.

Ashley Blackington (42:03)

Right. Pause.

Rachel Mae (42:05)

And so... preserving that energy. Yeah, it would be awesome if you could just sort of pause things for a second. But yeah.

Ashley Blackington (42:16)

It's hard, I think too, you know, there's a lot of things that came about from the pandemic, right? Like pointing out, you know, that how much of it got shouldered onto moms. Like millions of moms left the workforce. Millions of moms have not returned to the workforce because of many reasons, you know? And I think that as we get farther away from it, like the immediate effects are brutal for women and mothers. But I think the farther we get away from it, that we may realize that this is a more of a catalyst for change than what we originally thought. Like, I don't, I can't imagine going back to.

Rachel Mae (42:58)

Totally.

Ashley Blackington (43:10)

I can't imagine going back to that time, but also I can't imagine that so many people, like the veil got ripped off, right? It's like the, you know, you've been, you've said the, you know, we can, we can do it all kind of thing. Like we can, you can be anything. You can like have the business and the kids and the this and the, but what that really means is you're doing it all. And if you're doing it all, that's not really it.

Rachel Mae (43:13)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Ashley Blackington (43:38)

That's the infomercial not the lived experience. And I think that being in, having the pandemic experience, no matter what it was, was like, oh, I'm realizing that like, this is on me to do. Like, if school calls and it's canceled, like, this is coming into my world. And how do you, how do we start from that serious mismatch in what we're being sold and what is our actual experience? And it's that stuff, right? Like, you know, you can start a podcast, you can have a music career, you can, you know, you can, you can, you can, but how are you gonna have the scaffolding in place to make that happen? And we all just realized that there is no scaffolding. There is no village.

Rachel Mae (44:22)

Exactly. Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (44:33)

I mean, even if you have family that is supportive and involved and all of that stuff, it's still falling on your shoulders to line it all up, to do all the things and all of that. And so I think that in the long run, it will be a good thing like for our children's generation. If we model, you know, having choices for ourselves, not necessarily to say you have to own your own business or you have to have a, you know, whatever, an enormous podcast or you have to have this like Grammy winning music career in order to be doing it the right way. In order to be like the ultimate parent or mom or whatever, it's that you are still taking the time to honor those pieces of yourself. 

I think that when we show our kids that, that once they get to that age of having their own families, that hopefully, my hope is that they will say, you know, like you're saying like, “My mom had this music career and then she had kids and because she was raising us and you know, my parents had kids, they, everything kind of slows down so that they could do the other thing that they wanted to do. But it didn't stop.” It wasn't like, you know, the end of days. It was, she made different choices, but she continued to honor herself and she continued to be true to herself and she continued to move forward in a way that was fulfilling and made her feel like a whole person so that she was able to fully show up and rep and be who she wanted to be with us. 

And instead of being distracted, instead of having that space where you're saying, you know, I really, “I sorry guys, but like, I really wanted to record something today” and nobody had a nap and yada yada. And it's just, you're not, you're showing, you're showing them what it means to do the and/both.

Rachel Mae (46:26)

Yeah, yeah. I think something that's really been on my mind a lot lately is, and I think this paints just like the most beautiful visual. So like we all know about caterpillars and the chrysalis and the caterpillar turns into the butterfly. And something that I have been really ruminating on a lot lately is that like what happens in that chrysalis is very similar to what happens in motherhood.

When the Caterpillar forms into that chrysalis, right? It's like, it's dark and it's like, closed off and almost sort of isolated from the world, right? And what happens in there is like, the Caterpillar basically turns into goop. Like it just is mush in there. Everything has to sort of fall apart and dissolve. The existence and the physical body of what existed before, all of the things that the caterpillar embodied kind of have to like break apart, become this like pile of goop. And then it has to be re-sculpted and formed into what becomes the butterfly and has the wings to fly and go and explore the world in a whole different way and see it from a whole different viewpoint. 

I think there's a beautiful like juxtaposition there of motherhood that like when your children are born, you have that chrysalis moment where, maybe you feel a little isolated and you're in identity loss and you feel like your time is not your own anymore and everything just sort of feels like goop. And if you recognize that, like you can stay in that goop and you can let it just stay sort of like in pieces, or you can take that time in that goop and let it form into something new and not be afraid of the places that it's gonna take you that the view may be different and let it take you to that new place. 

What can come out of that chrysalis is beautiful and amazing and has a whole new vantage point. I think I really, that's something, the visual of that for me and motherhood, I feel like when I first had my son, I felt like I don't know who I am anymore. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I want. And the more I realize is like I was in that goop phase. And right now it's like I am building those wings and reshaping who I am and what I am and taking flight into something new. And it's going to look different than it did before, but it's going to be beautiful. And it's going to be like, if I allow myself permission to become and transform into something different, it doesn't mean that like the pieces of that caterpillar, that pieces of your former self, they're still a part of their right there. 

Those cells are still in the makeup of the butterfly but it just takes a different form. I think motherhood is very much the same thing of like ourselves of who we were before, they still exist. Those pieces of us are still there. We just have to reshape them into something different so that they can still exist out in the world. And I think that for me is the work right now of like recognizing that I kind of had to be like broken apart and melted down to turn into something new, but I didn’t lose all of that when I stepped into motherhood. But I need to have permission to fly. That's sort of like the visual for me.

Ashley Blackington (49:57)

Yeah, and I think too, like, I mean, you can't ask a butterfly, but if you could ask a butterfly, do you think any butterfly would be like, “man, I'd love to be a caterpillar again?” Right? Like, do you think, like, after you can fly and after you can do all the things and you are, like, up and mobile, are you ever like, man, you might want to have those parts, like, I can go and lay under a leaf and no one's gonna, like, eat me or, you know, whatever.

Rachel Mae (50:10)

Right. Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (50:30)

We can go down the very hungry caterpillar route pretty quickly on this. I'm well versed in that. Come on, Eric Carle.

Rachel Mae (50:31)

Yeah. Same. That's probably why I have this like, this in my mind is like I'm reading these children's books and I'm like, I was that caterpillar. I got pregnant and I ate all of that food. I went into the chrysalis, turned into mush.

Ashley Blackington (50:44)

You're like, this is profound. You're like, wait a minute, this is philosophical. Like I don't, there might be 17 pages in this book, but this is deep.

Rachel Mae (51:00)

It's like, yeah It's deep. Yeah. But you're so right. I just like the, I mean, you're right, we can't ask the butterfly, but we can ask the parent. I wouldn't go back. I love this, as crazy and chaotic and hard as it is sometimes. Man, do I love being a mom. And man, do I love the person that it has made me. I am so much clearer now on what matters to me and what doesn't. 

My BS threshold is so low. I just don't have the time for it anymore. I can attribute that directly to motherhood. I wouldn't want to go back in time and not have this experience. I think you're totally right about that. It's hard when you're going through it and everything feels sort of mush or goopy, but when you come out the other side, and I think that for anyone listening to who may be in that goopy phase right now, trust and know that there is another side and that it is that metamorphosis. It takes time, but there is another side and you don't have to just abandon everything that existed within you before it can just take new form.

Ashley Blackington (52:15)

Yeah, and I think too the time is really the key in all of it, is that you didn't become somebody different, you're just built differently with the same parts. So all of the things that you wanted before for whatever reason you wanted them, it may change. Your priorities may change and what you value may change, but it doesn't mean that you want any less for anything.

Rachel Mae (52:27)

Totally.

Ashley Blackington (52:44)

And I think too, like that's the, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I still have high heels from when I was 20. Am I gonna wear them? Never again. But my kids wear them. My kids wear them around the house and they think it's fun. And they're like, mom, you wore these? And I'm like, yes. As I slip into my well-worn Birkenstocks, I'm like, that was many years ago. Many, many years ago.

Rachel Mae (52:44)

Right. And it's okay to still want those things.

Ashley Blackington (53:14)

But I think too, like that's the other part is like, you don't necessarily, we don't give ourselves the time ever because we are always in that be productive, you know, like have all the things, have a plan, move forward, yada yada, like everything has to happen at this lightning speed. 

And you're going, you know, it's like driving down the highway with no directions. Like you don't know where you're supposed to get off on the exit. That's going to take you to the place you want to go. If you don’t slow down and look around at the signs. If you don’t have some sort of general idea about where you're going. And I think that, you know, for you driving down the highway, there's exit ramps that are music and there's exit ramps that are podcasting and there's exit ramps. Like, I mean, I'm not going to write your exit ramps for you, but just to speak to like the things that you value and that you see along the way, maybe it means that you circle back or maybe it means that you're just, you just keep on driving and you move on to the next thing, but that we have to give ourselves the time and the space to make that, to be able to make those changes and to be able to figure out where we're meant to be instead of being told where we're supposed to be. If that makes sense.

Rachel Mae (54:32)

And it is, it totally makes sense. And it is, there is spaciousness that needs to happen there. Right? Like just, it's okay to still want those things and to desire those things that you desired before having children. And it's okay if it doesn't all take shape right away. Like, I feel like there's sort of this feeling of like, okay, like the baby's here. Found my groove and now like, okay, now what? Like, what do I need to do? And we want to try to hurry the process. And it's like, I think it kind of comes back to what we were talking about before, finding ways to sort of anchor in so that you still have a connection and reliant to those things. Find a way to still have those pieces of you anchored in some way.

Ashley Blackington (55:12)

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Mae (55:26)

Like I was saying, for me, it's playing my guitar. Even just if I can, sometimesI joke that it turns into the living room set, but sometimes I can only really play like one song or a half a song, but even just giving myself permission to do just that kind of keeps me anchored in and connected to that. And I think if we can find a way to have those little moments that keep us connected to those things so that we remember, because I do feel like sometimes in the blur of motherhood, it can be really easy to sort of forget. And I did this with music a little bit of stuffing it down and thinking, I guess that was just something I did in the past. And then realizing like, no, you can't disconnect. It's like somebody telling me, don't use your legs. Like, okay, I mean, I could be down with laying in bed and watching Netflix all day for a while. I could have everybody bringing me stuff. That would, I could lean into that in a hard way. But at some point...

Ashley Blackington (56:12)

Right. Hard

Rachel Mae (56:20)

I could go all in, like that sounds pretty great actually. But if my legs still function, at some point, I'm going to want to get up and move around. I'm going to want to go outside and get some fresh air and go for a walk. I'm going to want to dance. I'm going to want to do all the things that my legs allow me to do. And I feel like for me, it's like trying to just say like, well, I don't do music anymore. It's like, I can pretend that I don’t care about that or I don't have that ability or that that's not a part of me anymore. But it creeps up at the most inconvenient moments when I'm trying to stuff it down, it'll just come like right up into my consciousness of like, you can't ignore this forever. And it's gonna just keep.

Ashley Blackington (57:02)

You're like, oh, I feel a tune coming on. You're like, listen, I've got stuff to do.

Rachel Mae (57:13)

It comes up at the most inconvenient times and it honestly like. It's the most when I am ignoring it or choosing to ignore it and it'll creep up and I have the strongest biggest emotional reaction to it that feels like a deep sadness. It's like ignoring a part of yourself. It feels like ignoring one of your children. It's like, hey, like I'm still here and I still need to be loved and expressed and seen. And it really like

I think just finding those ways where you can just have that through line and that connection, even if it doesn't look the way that it used to, I think it's such a powerful thing to help you stay connected to it so that when you do have a little bit more spaciousness and you do sort of come out of that chrysalis that you're not just starting at zero again and trying to reconnect to it all over again, because I feel like that feels really overwhelming and daunting.

Like we were saying, it's like the further away you get from it, the harder it is to step back in.

Ashley Blackington (58:12)

Yeah, yeah. And I think I agree. You know, I think the, you know, when you when you've like had a new baby, I mean, there's goop, right? So physical and metaphorical goop. But when you've had when you've had a baby, it's this idea, like even when you leave the hospital, like, you know, people are talking about bouncing back and like all this stuff is like you're supposed to want to do that. And you're and I think we run into that so much as like. I all going into the hospital or going into labor and delivery, you're like, okay, I'm going to do that. And then I'm going to go back to doing these things. But you don't realize that you are like, you're going down an evolutionary path of yourself. And so if we don't create space for people to say, I still am who I am. However, the shuffle of things for me has changed.

Rachel Mae (58:56)

Right.

Rachel Mae (59:08)

Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (59:09)

And I think that's where the siloing starts is when people say like, well, I, you know, I still have these things that I want to do and I still have these things that are important. And everyone says, but you're a mom now. So you have to like put all that on the back burner because as soon as you bring something in that detracts from your ability to be a good mom. And so creating the space where we say every single person goes through some sort of personal evolution once you bring another human into the world. And that doesn't mean that you have to be like a Jekyll and Hyde of yourself. That just means that, again, your priorities are going to get shuffled, your timelines are going to get rearranged and things like that. 

The more that we can create space for that to happen, I think that's where we're going to get more authenticity around the transition to motherhood. And that's where we're gonna get people who say, this was really hard for me. This isn't how I thought it was gonna be. And then that's where we can build community and that's where we can build connection. And that's where people, we can sit at dinner with our friends and say, I really like to do this before. And not everything has to have that, I love my kids, you know, caveat beforehand, right?

That's a given in many of these conversations. But when we feel like we have to say that, I feel like we're putting up the little like, the crossing guard before your feelings walk across the crosswalk. It's like, still love my kids. However, this is like what is going on in my brain right now. And we gotta get rid of the crossing guard because we can't keep separating these two things.

Rachel Mae (01:00:56)

Yeah.

Ashley Blackington (01:01:02)

Because you're not pulling from your ability to be a good mom or to do what you wanna do as a mom in order to honor yourself, you're actually doing the opposite. You are honoring yourself and you are doing the things that light you up and that fill you up and that bring you this sense of groundedness and the sense of peace and the sense of calm so that you are able to take that and pour it into being a good mom. 

Rachel Mae (01:01:25)

Yeah, so well said. I completely agree. That's so well said. I love the visual of the crossing guard because that is exactly it. And we all do that, right? We all do it because we're so afraid to admit. It's like we feel like that one thing cancels the other out. Obviously, we love being moms. Obviously, that is... We had families, we had multiple children, like clearly, we're loving being moms. So I do I love that visual of the crossing guard, because it's, it doesn't cancel it out, like you're allowed to have those desires and those ambitions and those dreams and things that make you feel like yourself that does not. Those two things can coexist together. And there can be duality there that you can be a whole person and also be a mother. And those

Ashley Blackington (01:02:14)

Yes.

Rachel Mae (01:02:16)

that's always gonna be a part of you, but it doesn't make you love your children any less if you love yourself as well.

Ashley Blackington (01:02:22)

Mm-hmm. I said this probably, I don't know how many years ago it was, but I said to my husband, I said, do you know how much easier my life would be if I didn't want to be a whole person? Like if I just wanted to take all of that energy and all of that, you know, the planning and the thinking and stuff like that and pour it straight into just being a mom, do you know how much easier my life would be? Like it feels like you swim against the tide when you say, I want to start my own business. I want to start a podcast. I want to like do all of those things. 

People say, well, wouldn't it be better if you just waited? And I'm like, it would be easier for sure. But at the end of it, what like, who is the person that's spending all this time with my children? And like, we've got it, we've got to fill that bucket so that is the person that you want going forward.

Rachel Mae (01:03:15)

Yeah. And I think it's worth saying here too that like, I recognize as well that ambition has so many different forms and our dreams and goals look different. And first, like, there's no... It's also fulfilling and well to say like, I want to be like, all I've ever wanted is to be a mom and I want to be like the mom who's doing all of the crafts and doing all of the activities and doing all of the things like...

That's amazing and lean into that, but that's also a form of your self-expression. If that's your desire, that's also a part of your self-expression. And I think we collectively need to just like hold space for all of us that like, however you express your core essence is okay. And we can hold space for each other in that. But like you wanna go and build a business or like start a podcast or make a music career, do whatever it is, like do that. You wanna be the mom who's like crafting and making all of the like Pinterest worthy things, like go all in. Do what feels good and right for you and allow yourself to express the things that light you up in an authentic way because either way, like that is how you as a, as a person get to move through this world. 

Not just as a parent, but as a fully formed person who has their own desires and dreams and hopes and goals. And they both can exist. And we don't need to throw up the crossing guard to say like, I love my kids, but like whatever, just do what feels good to you. And I think so often we tend to want to like not trust our intuition or trust those little like light bulbs that are going off in us. I feel like when you are called to do something or being called to explore something that's there for a reason and whether that thing becomes something massive or it's just the tunnel that gets you through one season to the other. If we don't explore those things as they're coming up.

they're going to come through in another way and you really can, you have the power to lessen your suffering by listening to those intuitive hits. Like I think we are so intuitive and I think there's something that comes through really strong, especially once we have children. And it also is like the biggest test of like, can you still listen to that intuitive hit and trust what you're being asked to do? Or are you going to like try to silence that out of what you think you're supposed to be and how you're supposed to show up in the world as a mom.

Ashley Blackington (01:06:01)

Exactly, exactly. And that is going to lead me to my last question for you. Well, probably my second, but my last question. So what is your and/both and how are you honoring, how are you honoring yourself in this motherhood? And I guess part B would be, how did you see that changing?

Rachel Mae (01:06:07)

Okay.

Rachel Mae (01:06:31)

You know, I think for me, my and/both is changing constantly because I'm, I'm ambitious. And also like I crave spaciousness. Like I want, which is so challenging in motherhood, like spaciousness and motherhood are just like two words that seems total opposite to each other.

Ashley Blackington (01:06:50)

polar opposites.

Rachel Mae (01:06:59)

And I'm, I don't think I honored or acknowledged that side of my identity so much before kids. I didn't recognize it as much. And I think in some ways I was hiding in my ambitions. If I would just go after all these things, then I wouldn't, I could sort of silence that craving for more spaciousness because it's like, well, I'm too busy to want that. And motherhood sort of forced me to realize, like, I have huge dreams and things that I want to do. And also, like, I crave a lot of spaciousness and I crave just like downtime and space with my family where I can just play for the sake of playing and find creativity in the most like mundane moments around the house with my kids. And finding that balance for me where I don't feel guilty for taking spaciousness, that is the biggest, that's a big hurdle that I am trying to sort out right now because I feel like when I do sort of slow down or pump the brakes and try to not do all the things.

Even if those things are like in service of my family, like that's another challenge for me of like trying to like be okay with like, hey, there's dishes in the sink and toys all over the place. And it would feel great right now for me on some level. I love spaciousness, like I love things cleaned up and orderly as well. And it would feel great to have that. But can I just like relax into this moment and not feel like my worth is attached to how productive I am and all of the things that I'm doing?

Ashley Blackington (01:08:27)

Yes.

Rachel Mae (01:08:28)

Because I feel a lot of guilt when I slow down, when I'm just letting myself, like we talked about when the kids are napping, if I'm just sitting on the couch zoning out or listening to a podcast while they're napping, sometimes I feel guilty, like, oh, I should go do the laundry or I should go and do the dishes. And so for me right now, really learning to just like be okay with not doing is the, that's the work that I have to do because I'm fine with the doing. I can

do things all day long. I can start a business and a podcast and a music career and do all these things. I can start projects all day long and I can start household chores all day long, but can I be okay with just existing and just being and not feel like my worth is attached to all the things that I do? I don't know if that answered your question or just went off on a total tangent, but I feel like my...

Ashley Blackington (01:09:19)

Hahahaha

Rachel Mae (01:09:23)

My and/both is like, I'm a mother and I'm ambitious and also like, I want spaciousness and stillness and I'm trying to find that somewhere in the mix for myself. I'll let you know. I'll let you know if I crack the code. Yeah. I'm not there. Yeah. I'm not there yet. Rachel Mae but I'll let you know how it pans out for me.

Ashley Blackington (01:09:37)

Exactly. Yeah, let me know how that goes. Let me let me know how the living room cleanup goes, because there's a reason I'm not I'm not recording in mine. I do think, I think that you are definitely in the majority when it comes to like productivity worth value and all of that and productivity being conjoined twins. And I think that, I think that we are, I hope that we are moving in a direction away from that, but that is a, that's a heavy hitter that I, that is, you know, gets pushed on from the beginning all the way through. And then I feel like someone hits the gas pretty hard when it comes to motherhood. But, well, I really could talk to you all day. I think, I think that, um, you know, you're like so spot on with, with being able to communicate about how, you know, the, just the ins and outs of it.

Rachel Mae (01:10:29)

The same.

Ashley Blackington (01:10:47)

And, you know, you have to be really self-aware and you have to really listen to your intuition and you really have to like keep checking in throughout. So I really appreciate you being on.

Rachel Mae (01:11:03)

Oh my gosh. Well, thank you for having me on. It's been so fun. It's so fun to have the tables turned too, because I'm so used to being the podcast host. And so it's fun to be on the other side of the microphone, so to speak, and to just be your first guest on this show too is such an honor. And I feel the same. I could talk to you all day. So this has been so fun.

Ashley Blackington (01:11:14)

Yeah. I love it.

Ashley Blackington (01:11:28)

Well, thank you again for coming. And I mean, I would love to have you come back at some point in time too, you know? It's just, let's keep the conversation going. All right.

Rachel Mae (01:11:35)

Yes, yes, please.