Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:00.91)

Okay, hello and welcome back to the AND/BOTH podcast. I am here today with Mika Desha of Rested Mom, a Happy Baby. And I have been looking forward to this for a while because as a mom and as a mom of lots of different people who have had lots of different sleep patterns, I think that your work is so necessary for everyone. And so I'm really excited for people to hear about you, what you do and how that all weaves together to make this and both piece, really an and both piece. So welcome.

Mica Deshaw (00:35.402)

Thank you. I'm so excited to always talk about this, mostly about the story, because I feel like there's so much white noise out there about motherhood, about sleep, about motherhood and sleep, and I'm really happy to be here and share the story.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:54.338)

That's awesome. Yeah, so how about let's start with you telling everyone a little bit about you. And then, you know, let's, we can dive into rested mama happy baby, but you first. You go first here.

Mica Deshaw (01:06.966)

Yeah. Oh my gosh. It'll probably all collide together, but I actually never thought in my mind I would end up one, working in sleep and working so closely to babies. So my background and upbringing, I'm the oldest of cousins of siblings. So I always kind of had that ability to, you know, understand nurture, being, bring the head. I did do a lot of work as a nanny, but I think all that work when I was younger solidified, I thought for me that I would not be doing much of that when I was older. I was going to prepare me for motherhood, to be honest. I was like, oh, you know, I understand I got this. I waited a really long time.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (01:57.141)

Hahahaha

Mica Deshaw (02:04.762)

to have kids in my opinion, you know, finding the right stable marriage. I just knew being the oldest that motherhood was going to be hard, focused on my career. I did the whole grad school thing. I actually studied edge technologies. I thought I was going to go into law, did the whole climb up the ladder in corporate in med device and IT and thought like, okay, now I'm ready.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (02:34.134)

Hahaha

Mica Deshaw (02:34.574)

Now I'm ready to have a kid. I met my husband in grad school and we just thought we were being so smart about it, you know, laying the foundation, got married, waited a couple years to have our first. I was in my thirties and had read every book because I really thought that you could prepare.

I was not prepared. So most people who, my family who knows me knows I am, I usually try to learn everything I can before I dive into it. That's just the kind of person I am. I have like library of books. I read every single method. I read, I think there was a book I read. It was like, surviving and raising your child through five years old. And I had read the whole book, like before I delivered.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (03:01.078)

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (03:27.429)

Yeah. Hahaha.

Mica Deshaw (03:31.495)

All that to say that the delivery of course didn't go as normal and you know, breastfeeding didn't go as normal. Whatever normal everyone told me it was going to be. And then I realized very quickly that I don't operate under eight hours of sleep. Like I just don't operate. I was leaving the house with my clothes inside out. I had to go back to work at six weeks, you know, being where I was at the time.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (03:42.784)

Yes.

Mica Deshaw (03:59.574)

and we were not functioning. And I think that was for me a pivotal point to where honestly, the sleep deprivation and going back to work and then my husband also being a zombie that I all of a sudden was like, oh my gosh, who am I? Because everything came crashing down of what I thought I was capable of. And all the prep I did, that was just out the window.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (04:23.426)

Yeah, it's real. And I think that that's something that like, again, why I'm so excited that you're here because I think that's the thing. Like you can read all the books, but like the lived experience of, like I've put cereal boxes in the fridge before and like, it's that kind of thing where you're just like on a base, like I can't human right now because I don't have enough, there's nothing left right now and I'm just like roaming the house.

Mica Deshaw (04:56.022)

and it's like, it's a lot different to those.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (04:58.046)

I can't remember what I need to be doing. I'm like, I'm not, I can't complete a task, like all of that stuff. And that's not something that like, no one like sits you down at your baby shower, right? And it's like, hey, by the way, you're gonna be pretty non-functional because like at that point you are, you're pregnant, you're preparing, but you're still sleeping even if you're not sleeping because you're very pregnant. Like it's like, like I explained this once as, you know, when you're in college and you stay up all night to like write a paper or prepare for a test or like whatever, right? Like you know how awful you feel and you go in and you hand the paper in or you write the exam or whatever, and then you go back to your apartment or your dorm room and you sleep for like 12 hours. But right, but like what happens if you do that, but then you never get that. And that's what it's like to have an infant. It's like.

Mica Deshaw (05:43.799)

We have to make it up.

Mica Deshaw (05:52.018)

Yeah, it's so true. And I think the one thing that we, I mean, that often comes to my mind now that I'm on the other side, of course, because when you're in it, and I maybe had a couple of friends who were also in the midst of it, but they actually didn't really talk about it. It made me feel like I was way more sleep obsessed. And then you hear it from your parents and from your aunts.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (06:12.842)

Mm-hmm.

Mica Deshaw (06:18.246)

Oh, well, yeah, babies just don't sleep. Like you are somehow supposed to live with it. And then your mind goes into. Am I the only one that seriously cannot function, that it bothers me so much? So then I went to, oh, man, I wasn't meant to be a mom. I can't have another one. Well, how did everybody else kind of survive? And then you hear these other things like, well, sleep deprivation is a is a form of torture.

used. So what is it? Is it normal? And that is just something that we agreed to in motherhood, and we should be okay with it. And if we're not okay with it, we shouldn't be a mother. Or I mean, all of these things in my mind kept creeping up. You know, Matt just fed into postpartum anxiety and depression. And then I just didn't know where I was in life anymore, all because of sleep.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (06:47.754)

Yeah. And that's the thing too. It's like, you're like, even when, even when you say like, I just need sleep, it's like, just need sleep is a basic need. So it's not, I just need sleep, like I just need like a sandwich. It's like my basic needs are not being met. So therefore, you're, you're way behind the eight ball on this one. And you also are not able to, to process the act, the situation, the way that you would normally be able to process a situation, which like you're saying, like it feeds into all of these other areas, you know, where normally like if you had all of this sleep and you had all everything going, you'd be able to be like, no, that's, this doesn't sound right. Like I am doing a good job. I am meant to be doing what I'm doing right now. It's just a really hard part, but if we don't talk about it, that's what it feels like. It's all these like silos, right? Like you, you see like the Instagram picture of the kid who's wrapped in the swaddle, who's sleeping and you're like, what is that? What is that like? Yeah. Oh my gosh. So, so, so how did that for you evolve into what you do now?

Mica Deshaw (08:19.21)

Yeah, so spoiler alert, I have two kids. I did it. My first is actually now seven. And so I do vividly remember there were a few breakdowns that made me feel like irrational. Like I was irrational about very small things. So I think it was a snowball. I remember I because of all the books,

Dr. Ashley Blackington (08:34.245)

You did it!

Mica Deshaw (08:59.41)

and all the books contradict each other. And then all the bad advice that I get, honestly, on Facebook mom groups, because everything was individual to their experience. And then I try to make it to mine. I remember for a week, my child, my daughter at the time, was taking 20 minute naps. And in my head, 20 minute naps or 30 minute naps meant that I was never gonna sleep at night. So it gave me anxiety during the day when I failed at a nap. And I remember bouncing in a yoga ball with her in a swaddle and then bouncing for maybe 20 minutes and getting so frustrated that I had to lay her down, go to her bathroom, and I just cried on the floor.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:29.211)

Oh, yeah.

Mica Deshaw (09:58.022)

And I remember in the moment feeling like I was ridiculous because I was crying over a nap, but then also feeling super hopeless. And then later that night we had gone to bed and it was my husband's shift. So we did this thing where we took turns that every other day I took anything that happened after like 2 a.m. and every other day he did. So it was his turn at 2 a.m. And 2 a.m. comes around and she's awake and she's crying. We had already been given the go to not feed her that she didn't need it. And then my husband goes on the yoga ball and starts bouncing. An hour later, he's still bouncing.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (10:35.854)

Oh my God, and not sick.

Mica Deshaw (10:55.498)

And yes, and he, I remember he yells, just put her on the boob. It'll be faster. And me going, no, it's my turn. It's my turn. And like refusing because like I just wanted that like one night of sleep. And then his last thing that he said was, this is it, we need to do something about this. And so we had after that gone to a professional and we actually used a sleep coach at that time. And with a matter of a week, you know, honestly, since then she's been a great sleeper.

High needs, seven years old, she gets 11 hours, she puts herself to bed, she knows her limits for her body. More sleep than I ever got as a little kid. But I remember until up to that point, in addition to feeling that mom guilt and hopelessness, I also somehow felt like I was the only one responsible and should know how my child should sleep. Like it never occurred to me, it felt like a failure if I had to get help.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (11:27.863)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, welcome to like maternal medicine.

Mica Deshaw (11:50.614)

Because everyone says, oh my gosh, it's so true. It's like, oh my gosh, like, and fast forward, getting better sleep, we decided to have another. And I honestly, I felt traumatized from the months of not sleeping and not functioning at work and feeling like I was less of a person that I was determined not to do that, but I wanted to know why. So my husband was like, don't even read the books, just go get educated and certified. So I went through a year of certification and training. I actually, because I'm type A, got triple certified because one program was not enough. You always feel like, okay, I'm gonna learn something different here. So I went across all of them. By that time I was kind of working with babies. I worked in respiratory device for NICU.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:04.14)

Mm-hmm.

Mica Deshaw (12:20.51)

And anyways, long story short, I went and pulled everything and all the evidence that I had together and realized like, oh my gosh, we can simplify this. And decided I honestly, I was gonna help one or two families a month. That's it, I'm gonna take care of my baby. That was just for fun. I'm gonna help a couple families. And then a couple of families ended up being 100 families a month and it quickly scaled. And so we created a trademarked approach really based on anti-Googling. Our goal is to help the mom really not feel like she's failing because she's reaching out to help, just someone who can say, no, all of that is white noise. These are the four things you have to worry about. No, you don't have to do Ferber.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (13:17.262)

Oh my god. Yes.

Mica Deshaw (13:41.83)

No, you don't have to leave your child in the room alone for no, it doesn't have to take hours. Like if you do these four things, it could be 30, 30 minutes on the first night and your child could be sleeping through the night by night too. I mean, it's, it doesn't have to be crazy like that. And so here we are, our, our rested mama, happy baby. There's two of us. So I'm on, um, I'm in California. My business partner, um, is Chelsea and she's in Kansas City and we do things a little different. So we have just found a way to help families and then also in a different approach. We really like the idea of community and having a tribe. So a lot of sleep coaching programs out there really either will offer you a course or they'll offer you $1,000 one-on-one. We offer group coaching because we do it as a community which allows it to be a little bit more accessible to a lot of families.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (14:42.562)

Okay, there's two things that I really love about that whole, that whole situation, your situation. Number one, that you didn't just go through one course and become like a disciple of that teaching. Like to me, the process of being like, okay, I'm not just gonna do one, I'm gonna see what the common pieces are and where things could be better and where things could be different. Like this is how you actually make change, this is how you actually create something new. It's not like I'm gonna go out and get certified in this one of many and then be the next version of whoever I took this course from. But to go through the process of figuring out where pieces are working for everyone really creates a distilled piece of education that, frankly, that's what families deserve versus like, like you're saying, like set up this like super, I mean, exclusive for the lack of better term, like this super thing where you have to like, you know, you've got to have somebody in your home doing all of this stuff or you've got to pay all this money or you've got it like you've, it's invasive. That's what, that's the word. You don't have this super invasive piece, but, and also, so I think that that's incredible, just all on its own. But I also think that the part where you're doing it in a group, like that is huge value in the fact that, you know, a lot of people, if you're, if you're, if you're hanging out with somebody one on one where you're like, I feel really vulnerable about this piece because I have so much of an identity that's tied to the fact that like, I need to be able to make sure that my baby falls asleep. And like, I may not be as comfortable or as open or whatever with like the true what I need. But if you're sitting in a room with three other people and one is going like, my kid is up every hour. My kid will not fall asleep unless this. My kid yada yada. Like you are creating the community piece that is really so lacking in what leads to Google and what leads to...

Dr. Ashley Blackington (16:57.694)

Facebook and what leads to like all of these other things because really what you're looking for is other people to have that shared experience. I think that's amazing. I think that is like, oh my gosh, that is cool.

Mica Deshaw (17:06.25)

Thank you. It fills my heart, honestly, because we do a rolling enrollment. So you have people at different stages of our 30 day program in there. And you'll see a new mom come in and say, I'm just here to say, hello. I don't even know where to start my child every 45 minutes. I'm co-sleeping. I don't even know how this is going to work or I'm going to, I don't know how I'm going to go through this. Um, uh, what's the first thing I'm supposed to do?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (17:26.517)

I don't know my name.

Mica Deshaw (17:38.554)

And she's really essentially talking to the coaches, but then you see these other moms go, oh my gosh, we were there just a week ago. You've got this. My child is this. And every time I see that I'm like, oh, you know, because just that one comment, you're like, oh, I'm not alone. And, um, okay. I, you know, this is fixable and it just gives that glimmer of hope. I think the hardest thing when you mentioned before, you know, when you study for a test and you go home and you can go make it up versus, you know, having a child that wakes up, you also don't know the end. People always say, oh, well, maybe they'll eventually fall asleep on their own. I mean, studies actually tell us that if you are experiencing sleep obstacles by the age of eight to 12 months, you are going to continue to do so till about three years. So then you take the other studies that have to happen after three years. And 80% of preschoolers are sleep deprived. So for me, those are all continued habits or things that we have an opportunity to change. So yeah, we're just, we're super passionate about what we do. We both have experienced postpartum anxiety or depression just because of sleep deprivation.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:42.452)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mica Deshaw (19:06.63)

Yeah, we're just happy to find something different. And really, our sense is everything says, if you want to get good sleep, you sleep dream. And that's true, but sleep training is not the only ingredient for something that's so biological. Independent sleep is important, but we're a lot of, I think, hesitancy that families run into is one. First, when someone says, oh, just sleep training. It sounds simple. And then you hear all these things on the Facebook group. Do you just leave your child in their room and then, you know, let them in there and cry it out for a little bit. You come out every 15 minutes. And some families have success over that. And a lot don't because that's not the only ingredient. That's not the only method that you can use.

Some babies require a little bit more guidance, you know, require a different approach, but it gives you that stigma that like, oh, this should be easy. So if I can't do the one thing that's easy, then my child probably can't be helped. And then the other stigma to it is, well, sleep training is cry it out. So that means my child has to cry themselves to sleep for two hours and that's the only way. Well, I'm not willing to do that, but then not realizing like, oh there are so many other ways. There's so many other ways. And it's not well known out there. Like the thoughts are very black and white when it's related to baby sleep.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (20:34.123)

Mm-hmm. Because I think it's what happens so often is that if you don't have these communities of people who are going through things at the same time, you fall back on older generations, right? And like how the advice and the research and the education piece is not a benefit to older generations. So you get, I think a lot of times what you get is that like, well, here's what worked for me. And you're like, I guess that's what we do.

And even if it doesn't feel like that's the solution, even if it isn't the solution, all of those pieces, like, I guess, because like I slept before I had kids and like, this is what my parents did. So I guess this is what I do. And that, you know, again, that's another layer of the like isolation onion, right? It's like all of these people did it. So I guess it's fine, but is that really ideal? So yeah, like I...

Mica Deshaw (21:40.06)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (21:43.11)

I say this now because she's 10 years old, but my oldest was a trick baby. And when she was little, I met a group of people. We all had kids around the same age and stuff like that. And I remember going out to lunch and we were talking about sleep and people were talking about sleep. And it's a topic that comes up because we're all tired and we're all trying to figure it out and all of that.

And I remember sitting there going, I can't say anything because my daughter slept through the night at nine weeks. So I was like, and I didn't do anything. This was not anything that I, I'm not a master, I don't, whatever, she just did. And the problem was is that it wasn't like, I had no airs of like, well, I've got this, oh, yada yada. But I was like, at some point the needle's gonna, the other shoe's gonna drop.

Mica Deshaw (22:17.194)

Yeah. This guy's like, yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (22:40.074)

Like something's going to happen. And it was just this like, like house of cards, like someday she won't sleep, whatever. No, it didn't happen. She just like always. Then I had another baby who was up all the time, all the time. But like at that point in time, my husband and I were like, well, like our oldest just slept. So like, why doesn't he just sleep? So it's like, it's coming somewhere, right? Like I didn't, I didn't have like all these people and all these people just slept. And I'm like, oh wow, let's talk about sleep. Cause I don't have any experience. Like, all of my kids are completely different. But by the time I got to the fourth kid, like, you know, my husband would still say like, but isn't this? And I was like, they're all different. Like we just ride the wave here. This is what we do. Get your surfboard and just ride the wave.

Mica Deshaw (23:27.73)

It's so true. And so studies actually say that there is a percentage of babies. So I always get the question when I talk to families, well, I don't know if I should do this right now because what if my child just naturally starts sleeping through the night? And I always tell families that you'll know because there is actually a percentage of babies that are just predisposed to sleeping through the night. Actually, like they just, they have, it's like having that natural skill that you can throw at the age of two. You know, that doesn't mean you'll never throw. That means maybe those kids need help later or a coach. Um, but some are predisposed to that. And, and, and that's why, you know, another sibling might be different. And, um, and I love that you said that, you know, things are different and, um, that second child, you know, you had to do different things because I do think that there is some thought out there, like we have families and it's their third, but they, the first two naturally slept through the night. And so when their minds, it's like, this happens naturally all the time, right? And unfortunately it doesn't happen all the time, but you will know with your child, like you will know if you have, you're holding onto that little bit of hope. Okay, great. Do it because if you can hold on, that means your sleep is sustainable.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (24:45.454)

Mm-hmm.

Mica Deshaw (24:52.842)

Don't change anything. Nobody's telling you that you need to do those things. It's at the point where you're like, I'm about to crack.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:00.805)

Yeah

Mica Deshaw (25:03.142)

Now maybe it's time for a bigger change and, um, and you move forward to something different. So yeah, it's really interesting.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:09.345)

Yeah. I think, and I think too, that's again, another piece where we need to have more of these group conversations and more community. That's not the Facebook mom who's like, no, I know how to fix everything. And you're like, what are your qualifications, lady? What are we doing here?

Mica Deshaw (25:27.06)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:41.494)

So in terms of the age of babies that you work with, do you have, is there specific like age or does it go all the way up to a certain age or what does the spectrum look like for you guys?

Mica Deshaw (25:47.43)

Yeah, so how we approach our babies is based on where they are developmentally. So there are what we say four main factors of sleep. The first factor is going to be environment, low-hanging fruit, but we are also safe sleep ambassadors. So we were certified to identify one of the 24,000 products that are sold for sleep that are actually not safe for sleep.

Which is crazy. So we're able to identify that because if your child is going to sleep longer, we want to make sure that space obviously is safe. The second is what we call our magic routine. And this is actually the bigger element of good sleep is finding a schedule that aligns to your child's natural sleep rhythm that will allow them to sleep easier and sleep longer.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (26:15.958)

Gosh.

Mica Deshaw (26:42.61)

So it's like you know, that extra catalyst in your in your cake or your, you know, you're in your active ingredient. And that's actually the biggest piece that most programs don't do because they usually just give you a template or say, Hey, you know, okay, seven o'clock and do the schedule. We don't do that. Every child is super different. And it's actually usually that one piece that can be the difference of a 30 minute nap, a one hour nap or a wake up two hours later or five hours later. And then we go into responsive method where you're in the room, it varies based on a child's temperament and age. And then we go into what we call calibration or sleep log analysis, where then we take all the pieces and we actually calibrate based on what your child's sleep is naturally doing and finding them a new schedule that supports those 11 hours or whatever it is.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:15.991)

Yes.

Mica Deshaw (27:40.006)

So with that, every step is really customized so we can work with newborns where we're not really sleep training, we're just setting the foundation from the beginning. We recommend starting around eight weeks of age because that is the developmentally appropriate time where they're able to identify sequences and routines. So please before that, just enjoy and no need to worry about anything, hold on.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:03.478)

Hold on. Ha ha ha.

Mica Deshaw (28:06.462)

After that, it's more appropriate. And then we also then go into our infants. Our infants start around 11, 12 months for us, depending on where they are developmentally. They have a different approach where we modify all the way to 18 months. And then we go from 19 months to four years of age where we do work with preschoolers and toddlers. And that is also a whole different approach. That specific age has a fifth pillar where it's really more behaviorless because at that point, like they can make a definitive decision to not want to do what you ask. And so there is a component in there where you, you have to help them want to want to go to sleep and not just do it based on being told.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:47.159)

I'm going to go to bed.

Mica Deshaw (29:03.362)

So we all that to say we work with ages up to four years of age. Chelsea is actually a toddler behavioral specialist. So she studied that. That's where our special sauce also comes from the toddler side. So we're able to work with all ages pretty much, except for adults.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (29:18.214)

That's awesome. I love that the, it's that idea too, that you're not, like it's not too late, right? Like it's not like, oh, well, my kid is now three and I guess the ship has sailed. Like I guess this is the way that it's going to be. So it's that idea that like there is a long runway to really help identify what is healthy or helpful. That's not the, helpful for your kid for like developing those routines and helping your kids figure out how to sleep so that you can sleep.

Mica Deshaw (29:55.576)

Yeah. So you can function and figure out honestly who you're gonna be after motherhood because you're never gonna be the same and it's okay, but it's hard to feel okay when you're tired.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (29:57.282)

Mm-hmm. And not Googling. Mm-hmm.

Mica Deshaw (30:11.418)

Yeah and not Googling. I Googled everything, and every Facebook mom group. And I was just so confused. So we actually do have a free training that we provide families just to get them through that first step and debunk all the things. We're very evidence-based as you can probably tell I'm type A and I have to read everything. So we went through the top things that you just don't need to worry about anymore and what and explain what those four pillows pillars are for infants. That free training is on our website on rested mama happy baby.com for anyone that wants to just watch it. But that's what we're striving for. We're just we want to normalize moms needing sleep and that being okay and having that not dictate the type of mom you are. But we also want to normalize that for some families waking up every two hours is okay for them and their sleep situation, that's what they want. We're also advocates of great, if it's not broken for you, don't fix it. The sleep industry, I think has a bad name that we're honestly, sometimes I see it taking advantage of tired parents. It's like, no, we just wanna be the hope.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (30:45.09)

Yes.

Mica Deshaw (31:07.978)

If you need us, we're here. If you don't, great, we're here for your tips, whatever you need. And I'm thinking for that message is out.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (31:43.586)

Right. It's... Yeah. I think too, the idea of that, so often what gets marketed, I think a lot of what gets marketed or how they do marketing is like, here's what's wrong. Let me tell you what your problem is because I am the only person who can sell you the solution. I think that is that double-edged sword of like, here's what's wrong and it's your fault. So now you need to do this by this, create this yada in order to be doing it right. Because if you don't, not only are you bad, but you're going to screw it all up. And that's the greatest fear, right? Is like, you know, you got to leave the hospital with a baby and you're like, whose idea is it that I can like actually do this? Like who is there nobody signing off on this? Is there nobody that's coming with me? Because like, why am I okay to be doing this right now? So I think too, like that, that idea of like having a, having a start of let's get on the same level of like, here's probably what you're reading when you are looking for answers in places that don't focus on the evidence and they don't focus on things that we focus on and here's why we focus on those things. So after you got sleep and starting all of this and all of that stuff, so what did that change for you?

Because I think too, like the idea is like focusing on getting back to sleep and feeling like yourself and all of that stuff, that becomes the goal. But then once you get there, what happens after that? So what happened for you?

Mica Deshaw (33:09.34)

Oh my. So I will preface for new moms or moms maybe in the same stage as me maybe felt this.

Mica Deshaw (33:33.322)

I will never be the person I was before children. My body is different, my mind is different, my hormones are different, my capabilities are different, the way I think is different, my values are different. And when you go into post-motherhood tired, that dissonance between you being different and what you grew into 30 years prior feels like a bad part of your life. For me, it did. And the hormones and all that stuff. When I started getting sleep was honestly where I started feeling like I could rebuild an identity that I could accept. That was really important for me. Until then, I think I was running on fumes and I kept mourning the loss of who I was before and I was 15 pounds heavier, but I didn't have the energy to do things. And I was going through work just frustrated because it also gave me guilt that I wasn't spending time with my daughter at the time. But once I got sleep, I had clarity. I think honestly, it gave me just a better chance to even focus on myself, even though it was an hour that I didn't feel like I couldn't move from the couch. I lost 15 pounds. I found a hobby. I was nicer to my husband. Honestly, my daughter is like, was so much happier. I don't know if it was because I was more rested or she was more rested or it was both, but parenting felt like it was attainable for me. And, as the spoiler alert shows, is I felt like I could be a mom again. Like I could do this with two. Uh, so it was pretty big for me. I think why I'm so passionate about sleep, but it changed quite a bit. And, um, in motherhood and feeling more capable, that was the catalyst for me to realize my 30 something year, you know, identity in corporate. I didn't need to be and I can go into small business and I can have the courage to do that and be a mom. I know that might be a long stretch to think just getting sleep, but I really feel like everything was a domino effect. If I didn't solve that problem for me, I would be in a different space right now.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (35:58.264)

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Your experience of that, like trying to, trying to bounce back. I think that too, like, I don't know if that's something that came up for you. It's that idea of like, I go and do this thing and then I come back. Right? But like the person that goes into the hospital or the person that goes into the birth center or the person that goes into like, you know, the water tub or whatever it is, the person that comes out of that is not the same.

Mica Deshaw (36:44.982)

No, not at all.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:46.682)

But you don't, it's another thing, like you don't know what you don't know. And maybe that's great because the identity shift and the shift in values and the shift in priorities and all of that stuff, that comes like a raging waterfall where you're like, okay, so like we're not going to do it the same anymore. And like, I feel like that I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I feel like that was a very black and white thing for me. There's so much gray that comes in motherhood, but I was like, listen, we are not gonna do that anymore. Thank you, no. Comfortably close the door, nope, I'm not, I'm all done here. This I'm gonna take on, this I'm not gonna take on. It becomes very cutthroat in terms of where your time is. But that also requires that you have a clear not conscience, that you have a clear head, and that comes from sleep.

Mica Deshaw (37:45.631)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (37:47.062)

Yeah. Sleep. We all need more sleep. We all need good sleep. Not just like I've slept on the couch for 20 minutes. It's like we need good sleep and we need good sleep when our babies have good sleep. But good sleep, what you're doing is not... Good sleep is not my definition of good sleep or your definition of good sleep. Good sleep is good sleep for that baby. And it's really being... It's a really baby centered approach to what you're doing and helping people understand that like the idea of should really has no place in sleep.

Mica Deshaw (37:50.518)

Yes. Exactly. I mean, every family is different. Every child is different. Family dynamics is different. You know, we have nurses and people in the medical field and firefighters and they have weird schedules. Or, you know, kids in daycare and families who work and families who don't, you know, don't have that same schedule. And I think if we start doing, if we start becoming too black and white with sleep, it's going to be unattainable.

And we hear that all the time. It's unfortunate, again, because we studied across so many different methods and institutions. I can't tell you how many times we've had a family who has felt hopeless because they have done a program, but their coach had said, well, the reason that you're not getting sleep is because you just won't put your child in their own room at six months or seven months.

And so they come to me and they're like, yeah, I mean, I guess we're just not going to, we're willing to. And I'm like, wait, you don't have to put your child in that separate room to get them to sleep. The whole point of independent sleep is it is regardless of the external factors. So that means there's something else in those four ingredients that is off. And so let's, let's focus on those things. But it, when I hear those things, it just, it breaks my heart. So as many people as I can tell, you know, there is a way for, there's a way for everyone to get sleep. There is a way.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:02.134)

Mm-hmm. But it's not the same way. Like that's, that's right. That's what you're doing by having a group approach versus a, you know, click by now and then you get this whole program downloaded and you get a paper template. Paper template has no ability to reason. It has no ability to like understand the context.

Mica Deshaw (40:04.278)

It's not the same way.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:28.722)

I think that's incredible. I just think like there's so many amazing like you took something that you totally could have just stared down the funnel of and been like, here's my life now, like, this is terrible, I fixed my own problem. But like, again, to turn around and be like, I don't want other people to feel the way that I do. And like, finding that there is information out there that's not helpful, or no longer has been proven through research or studies or whatever that it's not helpful to like, go through the painstaking process of creating something so that the next person that comes along doesn't have to literally reinvent the sleep wheel for you. I think that's remarkable.

Mica Deshaw (41:10.314)

Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, you must know too, you know, as someone who's well educated, unless you know how to read through research and evidence, if you are just going in and Googling things without having that background of understanding how to read things, it could feel like there's a lot of evidence to not do things on either side of the spectrum, right?

Evidence can be misconstrued in so many different ways and then it could be so confusing. I mean, it's unfortunate because if you get to the core of it, there's four things you have to worry about and it's not black and white. And no, your baby is going to be fine. And also why we call it rested mama happy baby. Like at the end of the day, you mom.

You mom have to function to enjoy the moment and to care for your child. So to think that you have to sacrifice and not sleep and that's better for your child is just not true because they need you. And in the process, you both need sleep, not just one or the other.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:16.334)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:28.534)

Right, right, it's not that idea of like pouring out from that empty cup and saying, no, like, I will fall upon this myself so that you all may be fine. Because really what's happening is, you know, if there's parents and a couple of kids, not everybody is getting their basic needs met but we're still expecting everybody to function as though they're getting their basic needs met. So it's just that recalibration that needs to happen so that everybody does have a seat at the table. Yeah, I love that. So will you tell everybody where they can find you, how they can work with you guys, if, all of that, all of the things.

Mica Deshaw (43:06.599)

Yes. Well, we are here for families. You can follow us on Instagram, rested mama underscore between rested mama underscore happy underscore baby. We give a lot of tips there. We'd love to just talk about motherhood, but you can also find us at RestedMamaHappyBaby.com. Again, we do have a free training that we give everyone. You have access to it. We break down the common mistakes and misunderstandings related to baby sleep. And then we go into really our approach and our four steps. And you can reach out to us there. Chelsea and I are really close to our families and we'll hopefully see you guys there. We're here if you need us.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:06.61)

I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming today because I think that this is one of those things like you're taking it from a lens of helping your baby so that you can get the things that you need so that you're doing this, you are able to live this and both experience, which is why I'm here. You know, it's that you can really put yourself into the equation again. So I just, I think that what you guys are doing is wonderful. And any mom that...

has solved their own problem and then in turn creates a solution for other moms in a way that is ethical and it's based on research and things that work and that keep babies safe. I could go into a whole other rabbit hole with you about safe sleep and products and all of that stuff. But I think that is an incredible...

piece to bring along with it. So thank you so much for coming on today. And if anyone has questions about sleep or anything like that, I definitely think that you guys are where it's at. So thank you so much for joining us.

Mica Deshaw (45:16.938)

Thank you. And thank you for having this conversation and having this platform. It's so needed for families and moms and it's incredible what you do too. So thank you so much.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (45:26.89)

No, thank you. Well, go and check her out, restedmommahappybaby.com. I will put everything in the show notes. And again, thank you for joining me.