Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

All right, hello and welcome back to the AND/BOTH podcast. Today I am joined by the wonderful Ali Karagozian and I did just rehearse the name thing because last time I talked about this. But she has many, many special things to share today. That's not to put the pressure on, but I'm just really excited. She's an OT, she is the owner of Holding Both, which we're gonna talk about and. all of the things that follow that. So I would love for you to, well, first of all, welcome. Hello, hi.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I get going and get excited and I'm like, so now we're gonna do this and now, and that's just really not the plan. So anyways, welcome. And I would love for you to tell people a little bit about you and holding both and all of that. And we'll just sorta go from there.

Allie Karagozian:

Well, thank you again for having me. My name is Allie Karagozian. I am a mom of two young boys. My oldest is going to be five in January and my youngest is going to be two next week. I am an Occupational Therapist and have been one since the end of 2015. And as Dr. Blackington has said in her prior episodes, the evolution of the career has changed for her since she's become a mom, as with me. So I'm excited to share that with you and just how things have changed in terms of what OT looks like for me now versus what it did before I had my children. Right now, I work in an acute care setting per diem and I own a business. I started holding both to support moms through secondary infertility. I started that in 2022. So we'll be going into that more, but I'm very excited to talk about that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, wow, that's awesome. So do you... So the... So acute care. So you are... You're like running up and down in all different directions. So that's got to be... That's a serious downshift or a serious change of pace, like to go from... I mean, and I only say this because I know this is... Everything is fast. Everything's fast.

Allie Karagozian:

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

People come in fast. People go through the process fast. People leave fast. And it's like, you know, you're... everything is sort of going, but the holding both is really about slowing down and stopping and really just focusing on this thing that I think a lot of times people end up trying to speed through. It's like, it's a whole different mindset and a whole different pace. So how does that work for you?

Allie Karagozian:

Oh, that's a really good question. I don't think I've ever thought about it in that context, but that's very true. In the traditional OT settings, I've worked in acute care, inpatient rehab, and mental health. And those in and of themselves are a lot different.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Allie Karagozian:

But in terms of acute care, yes, things are moving very fast. We see people maybe once or twice before they move on to their next setting. Whereas with holding both we’re working with the women who are going through infertility and motherhood at the same time, they don't know how long their journeys are going to be and they don't know. It is similar in the regard where you don't know what the outcome is going to be in the acute care setting either. But yes, with holding both women going through infertility, there's a lot of waiting. A lot of hurry up and wait is what people in the infertility community often say. And it's not fast. So it's a lot more focused on mental health and caring for yourself, like day by day, taking it one day at a time. And also making sure that you're engaging in your motherhood with your child that you have now and what that looks like. And. like addressing more mental health, like feelings of not feeling guilt for wanting another child and engaging with your other child that you have now.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

A lot of looking at what we call IADLs, so we can talk about that later too, the instrumental activities of daily living

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm. My love language.

Allie Karagozian:

So yeah, it's a lot different. It's two very different things. So I'm glad that you asked that question and I hope that answers the question.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, yeah, I think that that's like, I think sometimes what we end up talking about, or what we end up like, searching out is the answer to like, most of these things start right, like we have our own thing, whatever that is. And it's like, maybe it is the maybe it is the content, or maybe it is the context, maybe it's the pace. And it's like, whoa, like, how do we just stop this? Like, like, for me, everything was moving at this like, rapid pace and I was like becoming, I was feeling very untethered because there was nothing to tether to. And it was like, all right, we have to stop here. And like, I mean, (I will maybe so nonchalantly turn this into a pro OT podcast, because as many OTs as I can get on here as possible) because it's just this weird, like, it's almost like when you go through the process. Because we're so task analysis oriented, and we're so granular that, that you become this, like when, when you, when you take that lens and you put it into your own life or you put it into this, this group that you see, you're like, I can't unsee that. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like the princess and the P like I can't, I can't unsee this thing that's going on and I know how to help. And I know like, like you have a background in mental health. You have a background as a mom, it's like, okay, well I have all these tools, I can't just like walk on by, like I have to stop and help these people.

Allie Karagozian:

Definitely. I mean, I saw when I was going through secondary infertility myself, and I was trying to engage with my son and not feel like I was taking anything away from him. When I was trying to work, I was working full time at the time during the pandemic.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh wow.

Allie Karagozian:

And I was trying to just be engaged in my life and keep my home running. That's when I saw that there was just this huge need for moms who were going through infertility because, as an aside, a lot of the support for infertility, (and I do think it's changing), is for people who aren't moms yet.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

So there is a message that I was finding, and maybe it was some projecting onto myself or just putting pressure on myself, but the message I was finding of be grateful for what you have and then move along. And of course I was grateful for my son. But I was also realizing that... my IADLs, my instrumental activities of daily living, were so disrupted. It was like going through infertility and trying to parent at the same time was just messing up all my IADLs, my finances, the way I kept my house, all that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah. And then you also have the idea of like, it's like that, like the little lady in the grocery store, right? Like when your kid is losing their mind and you're like, I just want to get in the car. I just want to go home. Like I'm all done. I would like to go to bed now, like whatever. And then the little like elderly person comes up and they're like, every day is a gift or like, just So, that. enjoy this moment. And you're like, I don't have to enjoy this one to be doing a good job.

Allie Karagozian:

Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Like this, this particular one, I'd like to not have to like, do that for and like that doesn't make me ungrateful. It just means that like I am a human who is humaning in a world and oftentimes in a role where the human part is not so supported or front and center.

Allie Karagozian:

Absolutely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

So I love what you're doing.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you so much. And I loved when I saw your name pop up, the and/both, I just knew, well, and the fact that you're an occupational therapist, I just knew

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Hahaha

Allie Karagozian:

that there's a lot of overlap in values in terms of the feelings aren't mutually exclusive. And that's what I base Holding Both on is the message that you can engage in, feel the joy of motherhood, and hold the yearning and pain that comes with infertility together. So just because you want to have another child or children doesn't mean that you're not enjoying and engaging in the joy and the challenges of motherhood that you are in right now. So it's been really, it's been really awesome.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I think, yeah, I think it's incredible. And I think too, like, maybe, I don't know, I think sometimes what happens in things like, I mean, the pandemic is kind of this, like, great highlighter of things, but, do you think that if there was no pandemic where the amount of isolation and the amount you got cut off from being able to like attend a lot of groups or to reach out for one on one support. All those resources were suddenly diverted in areas where they needed to go. It's not, it's not like everyone just decided to go to Hawaii, but like, you know, all of those resources get cut off, but you still have these issues. Like, do you think that, do you think that we'd still be going on the way in talking about secondary infertility if we didn't have something so crushing and isolating like a pandemic.

Allie Karagozian:

I think it would be different for sure. I do think, I think about the pandemic a lot because I really was on the front lines and it was during a time in my life, it was profoundly hard. It was when I was going through infertility and a semi-new mom, I mean, my son was two or just about two. So it was interesting too to see like pandemic parenting, even though I didn't have like a lot of before the pandemic, like two years before, but pandemic, non-pandemic parenting versus like being thrust into being isolated with my toddler, was definitely interesting. And I think that maybe changed some conversations and I don't wanna go too much off on a tangent here. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Hehehehe

Allie Karagozian:

So reel me back in. But yeah, I think the pandemic changed a lot. I think it changed a lot in terms of maybe getting more virtual resources out to people that may not have been available before. So like Zoom connections and stuff like that. So I think maybe in some ways it was, well not maybe, definitely in some ways it was more challenging in the infertility community to be like navigating appointments and doing all this stuff with the pandemic because you weren't able to bring your partner and that kind of thing. but then the virtual resources I think increased. So two different things, but.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, yin and yang. I think too, I feel like that, especially on the negative side of the pandemic, I feel like there were so many times in there where people were like, well, at least I'm not, at least I don't have COVID prior to medicine and technology and therapy and all of that stuff. There's that idea of relative trauma or relative suffering. 

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

You know, I feel maybe when the message is like, you have a child, you're going through this, this process. And it's like, you know, is it, is it the, like, do you, is it people not being able to feel like, oh my god, this is, this is awful. And like experiencing all that, because then you get that, like you were talking about, like, well, at least like, I have my son. and at least I don't have COVID and at least, at least, at least, and it just like makes everything smaller. But you're creating a space for people to not make everything smaller relative to everything else.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

You’ve created the space where people are like, no, this sucks. This sucks.

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Like big picture sucks. And in, in part of my life. So it's

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah,

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

yeah, like, yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

I definitely I think I think something that I did do was I think I did a really nice job for myself. And I like look back at myself with compassion during that time, because it was really hard. Not like at least thing, I think I was really acutely aware, in the moment that like, what I was going through really sucked like terrible.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

Um, and I think back to November 2020. And I do think that was one of the lowest points, but I think it was one of the points that really defined and like is the reason why it created holding both. It was a point where I felt like the pandemic, like a couple months prior, I was like, maybe this is going to ebb and flow and be done. And then November 2020 rolled around and it just was like very clear that it wasn't ending anytime soon. I had been doing fertility treatments and my third one. I've been doing IUIs, which are a little bit more conservative than IVF, but still involved. And my third one I had had, and it ended in a miscarriage. And it was like, you know, working as an essential worker and being told, okay, now it's time to consider IVF. And it was just like so many shifts at once. And I also knew that I'd be taking all these medications for IVF. And at the very end, right before my agri-retrieval, I was going to have to take a COVID test. And if it was positive, I was going to not be able to do IVF.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Jesus.

Allie Karagozian:

And so that just felt very high stakes working on the front lines. And so I knew in November of 2020, that's when I just decided that if I ever get to the other side, no matter what that looks like, because I also knew that I might not have a second child. I was really, really hoping I was. But I told myself whenever I get to the other side, whether that be a second child or deciding an alternative path, I'm going to do something to give back and I'm gonna do something to support others and I'm going to do something to really, really highlight that like this sucks, you know?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

And I know you as an OT too, it's like as OTs we see situations that are so, so hard. And I think sometimes I'd come home from work and say, like, you know, think about someone who has a diagnosis where they're not going to be living for much longer or someone who has a really serious neurological thing going on. And I think that those are the moments where it's easy to at least yourself, if that makes sense.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, for sure. 

Allie Karagozian:

But separating is something I think as OTs are really good at doing is just looking at context.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, I remember my, I worked, so I worked in acute rehab most of my clinical time. And so typically the people that are in there are older.

Allie Karagozian:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

It's typically falls or like major surgery or an accident, but there's not that many young people in there. And after my first child was born, I worked with the first like mom who was my age. And I was like, not okay. Like, you know, I have seen horrific things and I have worked with people where it's just like, you read these charts and you're like, oh my God, oh my God, what is going on? And I remember like, I walked into the room and it was, like this woman was not gonna survive and she and her child was in there. And I was like, wrecked, completely wrecked. Like it was all I could do. And you know, like, when you do this for so long, there's like a weird dissociative, like it has to be very clinical. You have empathy and you care and you like you understand that but you don't have that like deep like feeling in the core. And I remember I left the room and I was just like, not okay, not okay, like, like I've seen awful things like not okay, because it was so close.

Allie Karagozian:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

And It's just, it's like, what, why, why? Why is this stuff happening? Like, why is secondary infertility happening? And it's not like the clinical why, it's the like, what in the world is going on that like these, that people are experiencing these things?

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, it's just, and people need space. People need space to talk about those things because otherwise they get locked into, you know, the echo chamber or they get locked into like, I'm the only one that this is happening to. I'm the only one that's experiencing this. Everyone else is like handling it. Everyone else has this village. Everyone else is getting to the other side of it. So it's just creating that space is essential.

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah,

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

So thank you.

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah. And you know, it's interesting to around the holiday season is like things that I've heard for from women who I'm working with and And myself I noticed that around the holiday season that seems to be when social media- You start to see a lot of pregnancy announcements It seems like there's more on the holiday season and a lot of women have a really hard time with it Myself included when I was going through it And social media is something that for me, I always liked. And that's not something I took a break from. I just tried to monitor how I used it and how it made me feel and check in with myself. But something I hear a lot is, I feel so bad, this should be an exciting time. I can't be happy for her right now. And that's another message that I wanna put across is that It doesn't make you any different of a person. It's just you're going through something where you're grieving and it's really hard to be, to show up and be happy for someone else. And you don't need to be the loudest cheerleader at the moment. Um, you can care for yourself. Um, and I think, I think with the, at least thing to go back to that for one more moment is that when people think about infertility, especially from the outside looking in, it's like. You think about. having a baby on the other side. So this is an exciting, exciting thing to be able to go through and like have the hope of having another baby. But a lot of these women are dealing with some pretty serious diagnoses like endometriosis and getting surgeries. And there's a lot that is there that's really hidden. So I try really hard to stop the at least because like a lot of this infertility is tied with diagnoses and illnesses that are really difficult in everyday life.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, and it's all hidden. That’s the problem. It's all hidden is that it's all just like, there's so much just figuring it out on your own that people are left to do. But if everyone's just trying to figure it out on their own. So when you like to go to talk about like the, so acute care, all of these things, you have to take care of yourself at the end of the day. Like you have to, you leave work and you're like, that was a day and how that all works. How do you do that for yourself knowing that you have, withholding both, I almost said and both, sorry, withholding both knowing that this has been your experience and it's like, you know, like you're circling back on it when you're working with other people. Like, so how do you take care of you in this?

Allie Karagozian:

You know, it feels a lot different with Holding Both. I think part of it is that I, even though I have my two children, I am still going through, and I think it's gonna be like a life, I think it's going to be a lifelong healing process for me. But I think to some extent, like as I'm creating content, or as I'm creating ideas for what we're gonna speak about in groups. I find myself reflecting on pieces of my journey that I might not have thought about in the same capacity at the time. So I do not feel like, I don't feel like I need, let me see how I can articulate this best. I don't feel like I need to be done with work and then decompress in a way that has nothing to do with holding both, if that makes sense

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, that make complete sense. 

Allie Karagozian:

When I come home from working at a hospital, present and in the past, more so in the past, because it was a lot more difficult to do full-time and to do inpatient rehab, I think, was like I really needed buffers at the end of the day. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

A drive.

Allie Karagozian:

Yes, a drive, yeah. And my son actually went to daycare at my hospital and so it was like I had a drive, but like my drive was with him and it wasn't. I couldn't really listen to podcasts or couldn't really listen to something that decompressed me as much. So, but anyways, I digress. I don't, I don't feel like I needed or I do not feel like I need like a break where I'm just doing something that is like completely unrelated. To give you an example, like my youngest son is turning two this upcoming week and I found myself,

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Happy birthday.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you. I found myself. kind of revisiting some emotions that I was having when my other son was about to turn two and I was in a thick of infertility. And it feels a lot different, but there's things that have stopped me in my tracks and have made me think. And to me, that's been therapeutic because it's helped me create content for Holding Both.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

And it's just helped me. take a pause and journal for myself or do something that honors my past self. So a couple examples is that my son is done in his crib and that's not something, that's a lot earlier than my other son was. I don't know, he just isn't using a crib anymore. He's climbing out.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

But taking down the crib and that was something that was really emotional. I know a lot of people in my community have a really emotional time taking down their crib. A lot ofthe women in my community are three, four year olds and they've kept their cribs up because they think, you know, the baby's coming and now they're taking them down, acknowledging that, you know, another baby may come, but I'm going to take down my crib and it's like a very symbolic thing.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

And so when I was taking down my crib, I was thinking about all these women. And for me, like it was healing, but it was also just definitely made me. think about them and have empathy for them and just think about what they may be feeling. So yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, like you're part of something. You’re part of something, you're not doing it alone. All that, so much of the closure piece, I think it goes across so many different aspects, especially of motherhood. I've put this out before, my kids' clothes, it is like, that's my Achilles heel. Like the baby clothes and things like that. I did not experience secondary infertility, so I don't wanna say that I’m hopping on the bandwagon on that. But the closure piece of it is, it's so hard. So having that piece and also having the secondary infertility and how that impacts and how that layers into that is just, that feels like it could be easily very crushing. I cannot, I mean, my son like, my son is three, and he is like in that phase where like, they go through like a growth spurt and you have to like, you know, change out all the clothes, but like he's the last one that will ever wear them. But the difference is, is I know he's the last one.

Allie Karagozian:

Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

And so it's like, but I've had, you know, as we were growing our family, it was like, will this kid get to wear this again? Or like, will the next baby? And, It's just this idea of everything wrapping up. Like, he's got a toddler bed now. He really can go into a regular bed. But I'm like, there's been a crib in my house for 11 years. 

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Like, I remember when I brought this home from the store and it's just like, there's so many layers and so many emotional pieces that go to it where, again, I will sing this from the rooftops. You're creating the space and the opportunity for people to say, this is happening to me, and other people to say. Yeah, me too. This is horrible. And like just bringing it out into the light is everything.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you. Yeah, I think it's really important. And I would like what you said, it's a universal experience with moms to, to know or not know, but just the baby items and what's attached to the feelings of each item. And some, they hold more sentimental value than others, or like you said, having the crib for in your home for so long, it's so significant.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

There was actually a reel that I made. couple weeks ago and I did not realize it would hit home with so many people is I we moved in May. So we've been slowly unpacking and transitioning from living in the city to living in a house has been definitely interesting but a lot of shifting around of the baby stuff. And one of the things that I came across is our double stroller adapters that we never children ended up not being, like my son ended up not, or being too big for the stroller by the time that my other son was born. And so we never needed a double stroller. But we had the adapters because when I was pregnant with my first, I knew I wanted another one. And so I bought, I registered for the adapters because I thought maybe the models would change and like another baby would surely be coming shortly after. And so that to me, when I saw those, that gave me pause because it reminded me, it just reminded me of the control I didn't have in terms of like the spacing of my children.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Allie Karagozian:

And so, and that resonated with a lot of people because I think that is a common thing, especially with secondary infertility is it's very blindsiding. So you're picturing certain things and like even tiny little things like that, not using a double stroller. just yeah, make you stop and make you think. And so that resonated with a lot of people. And I'm not glad that a lot of people feel that, but I am glad that I was able to put words to it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Right, you're holding up a flag for people to find, really. And I think that's so important. So when you, so you do per diem and you do and you have the group. So outside of taking care of everybody else, what do you do for you? Like how do you... How do you take care of you? Because there is this like, especially I think when you're a therapist, like there is this fulfillment that you get from helping other people. But again, that's more giving, even though there is some like kickback in like feeling good and feeling helpful and feeling like you have this skillset and you can affect change and create community and things like that. But like outside of those things, like for you, like for Ali, what is... What does Ali do for Ali?

Allie Karagozian:

So for me, I love to write. When I first became a mom, I started a blog. It's a small blog, and I hadn't written on it recently.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Allie Karagozian:

But it was called Home on Thursdays because I worked four nines, and Thursdays were my day where I was home with my son.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

And so every week I would write a blog post about just my reflections on motherhood, living in a big city, and life in general.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Allie Karagozian:

And while I haven't written in that in... a couple months. I still write a lot and that's something that I want to get back to too is updating my blog.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Allie Karagozian:

Because writing brings me a lot of joy I always had ever since I was a little kid.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

And then I also, so we moved into a suburb right outside of Chicago. I always laugh because it's like a suburb, but it's not. I mean, we're so close to Chicago or a couple blocks from Chicago. But I love, one thing I really, really love is old homes and our suburb, all the homes were built like roughly between 1850 to 1950. So all the homes are old.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That's awesome.

Allie Karagozian:

And really gotten into old homes and learning about old homes. And I love going on walks in my neighborhood and just seeing the different architecture. And along with the walks, I've started to run too, because I want to be taking better care of myself in terms of exercises. And I'm not a big runner, but my husband and I were talking about it. He likes to run and I love to go on my walks in the neighborhood. So I said, okay, I'll commit to running Thursdays and Sundays. And so that's what I've been doing for me time. So it's podcast in my ear and running around different parts of this neighborhood.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That’s awesome. I think that that's really cool. Do you, there was a question in there and I totally just forgot it. I don't know. So do you, when you talk about like the, what do you envision for Holding Both? That was the trend I was going…

Allie Karagozian:

So with Holding Both, I actually made a change yesterday to just go more in the place that I envisioned. So withholding both what I used to offer was one-to-one sessions, group sessions, and then community. So just slowly building up, like slow and steady, building up my Instagram community to connect other people. And then yesterday I announced that I'm no longer offering one-to-one sessions. and focusing solely on building up my groups because groups are something that I just, I really, really enjoy. And I feel like they're beneficial for the women who get to connect. So building up group offerings to cover more women. So like general secondary infertility group is what I do right now. So I'm gonna add another one of those. And then a group for those who are experiencing secondary infertility, trying to have a third child or beyond. because I don't think I think when people think secondary infertility they think trying to have a second child but people can experience it having a third or fourth.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

It's just a history of a prior successful pregnancy to term and then difficulty with the subsequent. And then having a group for those who are deciding to walk away from their secondary infertility journeys and embrace their lives with one child. And so I'm really excited about those additional group offerings subsets of women in my community that might not feel like as their journey has gone on that the standard secondary infertility group applies to them anymore. So building up my groups and community.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That's amazing.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, so you give them, so that's like a choose your own adventure kind of thing, right, like so you have, you know, everyone comes in and they get a chance to meet and grow and learn about each other and all of that. And then it's sort of like, what path are you on? And we have a way to support you on that path, whether you keep going, whether like you, again, you're in this asterisks of the third and fourth. or you're all done. I think the all done piece is so valuable because I think a lot of times what ends up happening is people like, you just go and go and go and then you decide you're done. And there's not, like, I don't, is there a place for people to have that like cessation of trying support? Like does, I don't feel like that's out there

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah, I mean, I do see it in the child free communities where women, and I think that I've learned a lot from following those women. But I haven't seen it in secondary infertility where you are trying to have a second and then it doesn't work out for whatever reason. And a lot of it really comes down to the fertility. interventions being so expensive that people reach a point and then there's that grief there of like we've spent all this money to try to have another and there's that like loss and that grief so I'm really working on trying to build up and structure those groups before I officially launch them and one perspective that I think is really interesting to you it's more so for our like for child free but I've been listening to some of those podcasts, is that when I grew up, I had only one set of aunt and uncle, or one aunt and uncle out of all my aunts and uncles that had living children. And so I had an example growing up of individuals, all my aunts and uncles, aside from one, that had very rich and very joyful lives and very full lives without children. And so even though these women that I'm going to be serving, that are, they do have a child. I think that there's a lot of, I think that there's a lot of overlap from people who are child free and people who are grieving a loss of what they thought that their life was gonna look like. I think there's a lot of overlap and there's a lot of value there. And I think just observing that as a kid is something that I got to see that I don't think is as common as I thought it was when I was younger. Um.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Right, like that's, yeah, that's your normal.

Allie Karagozian:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

It's so funny, like I've, you know, I've met with, this is still relatively new and it's still like working its way out into the internet world. But like the people that I've spoken to so far on here and, you know, in learning sort of a little bit more about them, it's like, there's such this huge, like we, I don't know that we necessarily, realize the impact of the things that we saw, like, usually, usually it's related to trauma, right? Like, things that are bad, things that are hard, things that are awful, all of that, like, there's a, there's definitely a through line that we can draw. But then when it comes to like, that piece of it, where it's like, this is a positive thing. And this was this was my normal. And so that is that's part of your story that you bring out there where it's like, like you didn't grow up. If you grew up in a family where you have all these aunts and uncles and everyone has like three or four kids, all of this stuff, it's like, there is a little bit of a grounding point where it's like, okay, I know people that don't have any children and it's not everything is all bad and awful because you don't have children and all the things you're supposed to do with your life revolve around having children. So being able to connect those dots for people is... is awesome. But I also like I keep thinking like, so many things that we end up doing, especially at this sort of phase and stage of our life is like, oh, yeah, when I was a kid tends to come into the equation somewhere. And like that how much influence that has.

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah, I mean, wow, it's interesting that you say that too, because something that I feel like informs holding both a lot is the body keeps score. I'm sure you heard of that book,

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh, yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

The Trauma. And I took a continuing course with the author of that, and it was so interesting.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh my God, I bet that was fascinating!

Allie Karagozian:

Any OTs out there? It's still, it's like recorded and available still. But I, yeah. I mean, I think seeing what you've observed in childhood and certain things as a good thing is huge. And I think it's cool that you put words to that. Because I do remember, especially growing up, my sisters and I were the only ones at like the Thanksgiving table because my one side of cousins lived in California. And I would hear other families say, like, oh, that's you know, you guys don't have cousins at the holidays like. And to me, I still felt like it was, I felt like we had great experiences at the holidays. I love my aunt and uncle so much, my grandparents on both sides so much. And yeah, I think it's invaluable for me to have seen what it's like for people to have very full lives, like I said, without living children. And now I feel really lucky that I'm able to see that. And even now, like seeing into adult, like later adulthood. how amazing their lives are. So yeah, I feel really fortunate.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, you bring that into the mix. I just feel like people find, you end up finding the thing, right, like if you're, however it happens, you know? And I think a lot of times, like, when you just sort of start following that, like, this is what lights me up and this is what makes me feel good. And although the topic itself, secondary infertility, I don't think makes anybody feel good, it's the opportunity to... the opportunity to connect with other people and the opportunity to hold a space for people to have this makes me feel really good. And that's the thing that lights me up. And so I'm going to go in that direction. And then you pull in the pieces of your own self and your own history and your own journey.

Allie Karagozian:

Definitely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

How did it change? Not how, but did it change for you when you had your second child? in terms of like, so you started… I was trying to do the math. 

Allie Karagozian:

I started Holding Both after I had my second child. It was when my second was born in November 2021. And I was, I think I had mentioned earlier, in this interview that we as my OT career, like as my motherhood journey evolved, my OT career has evolved as well.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

And I was feeling this pull of what am I going to do when I go back to work? Is it going to be sustainable for me to have two young kids and be working full-time as an OT? And as all moms know, daycare costs are very, like very expensive.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

ridiculous

Allie Karagozian:

And my husband and I don't have family here. And... We love going to visit our families in Michigan, but we don't have any family immediately here. It was our choice to move here for his schooling and we like it here. But that does come with its downsides of not having someone to jump in and help us. So I knew that whether it was my choice or not, work was going to have to change for me. And so I joined a business course and I didn't actually have an idea. at the time of what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to be amongst women who were entrepreneurs. And so I signed up for that. A week I went back from maternity leave and then started learning about being an entrepreneur. And then the idea just evolved and fell into my lap at that point. So I launched Holding Both in July of 2022, and I had gone per diem in May of 2022. So. Going per diem freed up a little bit of space and a little bit of breathing room for me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Allie Karagozian:

And I felt lucky that I was able to do that. I have a really, really supportive direct supervisor. And also kind of to backtrack to, I wanted to say she knew about me going in through infertility and so accommodating. So I know a lot of professions, people are flying under the radar and not wanting to tell their... their supervisors and mine was always very accommodating and very supportive. So that was really great.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That's amazing.

Allie Karagozian:

So, I felt very fortunate that she also was accommodating to me when I decided to go from being a full-time senior therapist to a per diem therapist. Um, I felt very lucky. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

How did that feel for you in terms of like, going from this full-time position to when you start bringing in the business building aspect of it? Because that's a whole, talk about not knowing what's gonna happen the next day or whatever, it's like completely, you can try and lay everything out and all of that. How was that for you in terms of that pivot?

Allie Karagozian:

Um, with the business aspect, well, the pivot was, the pivot was a little bit scary because I felt like I spent so much time on building up my career as an occupational therapist full time. Um, I was really proud that I got to the point where I was a senior therapist, um, doing presentations and speaking at conferences and like grand rounds and that kind of thing. Um, but I also knew that. financially we could not afford to have two kids in full-time daycare. And there was a pull that I had not to be completely a stay-at-home mom because I knew we couldn't also couldn't afford that but I knew I needed to just shift shift. And then with Holding Both I remember thinking okay I'm gonna start a business and I'm not sure how this is gonna go but I'm gonna go with it and I'm gonna be really consistent with it. And that's what I've done. And there is a woman that I met in my mastermind that shared a video that really resonates with me. And her name is Chloe from West Haven Coaching. And she shared a video that said entrepreneurship is like playing in a sandbox. And like it's an imperfect process at the beginning. But, you know, you keep going and going. And all of her content really resonates with me, but that like specifically because holding, wearing a bunch of hats, the motherhood hat, the trying to do stuff for holding both after bedtime. Um, and that kind of thing was challenging at first, but it feels so, I feel so passionate about it that I want to keep going.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, that's awesome.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I think it's like,

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

you know, you've got to have that spark to go there because it's true. And I think that there's so much of a... When I was out on maternity leave with my first, I used to hang out with a group of moms and we were all, we had our first and for the most part, the ones that were home were teachers, therapists. Like it's, you know, women in these like helping professions and across the board was like, it's not really super feasible to do. I feel like a long time ago, it used to be like when you had like three or four kids and it's like, wow, the balance here is really off. But now like going into that one, it's that there's that piece of like, is this a doable thing? Like, because daycare is so expensive, because child care is so expensive, because you know, we don't live near families in the same way that we used to, and how does that all work? And then to layer on top, if you have someone that is going through the process of fertility treatments and going through secondary infertility and not having those supports and not having those pieces there, it's like, it's just exponentially more pressure and more to deal with and more to like. it's more juggling, like the plates aren't spinning at the same speed. You know, you're not like, hey, we have to get here and we have to do here and we have to do this. And it's just like, how do we how does that change on a on a bigger level? Like we can do the stuff in the in the moment. But how does that change on a bigger level where it's not like you have to you have to think about your career when you want to do this other thing that you want to do. I mean, I Like everything you said, I resonate with. Like I had one kid, I never looked at childcare because I never toured a daycare facility, not because it's like I've got a money tree in my backyard, but because it just doesn't, the math doesn't add up when it came to the things that we're gonna do. And I watched the people before me that were. therapists that were parents in the office that had no vacation time because all of their vacation went for sick time when their kids were out of school. They had, you know, you've got, you can't stay late at work to finish up the thing. So you're just sort of always, you're always running from one fire to another. And so figuring out how to like get out ahead of that and say like, okay, I am gonna start this business. And at the same time, like, Yeah, you don't know what's gonna happen, but you also, if you know what's gonna happen and you know what's coming at you and it's not the thing that you want, why not take that leap? Why not start the business? Why not do the thing that, again, that lights you up on the inside? And OT pivot. The more

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

OTs that we get in different parts of the world, the better off.

Allie Karagozian:

No, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, I have a PT friend who is a great friend of mine, and I've known each other for almost 15 years, and she asked me once, like, are you scared to do this? Does it ever make you nervous to step away from full-time work or start something on your own? And my answer was like, heck yeah, but my husband and I are, we have had pretty much no choice but to be risk takers. And I know entrepreneurship can be risky, but my husband is a PhD student and he has been one like since before our first son was born. He's almost done with his dissertation.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That’s exciting!

Allie Karagozian:

And that was part of the reason why, yeah, I'm really excited. So, see, that was part of the reason too why I had to go back full time for so long is that we were paying for this. school as well as both of us were working. And I think about, I think back to some of the things at the time where we were on such thin margins in terms of like our schedule and what we were doing and daycare to like there's a specific day that just it makes me smile because it was like, wow, I'm proud of us. But like also this is ridiculous is that with IVF, there's a lot of doctors, wait, minutes like a lot and there would be days where I'd have every other day to go into the get a blood draw. And it was in downtown Chicago. We have one car like it's a very Chicago thing. And we were like looked at each other and said, okay, daycare drop up first or get your lab first. And he's like, okay, let's do this. I'm going to drive you down, you're going to get out, go up running, get your blood draw. And I'll take two laps around the city, like a little part of the city and then come pick you up. So it's like, he went and did that, dropped me off, got my blood work, my little son was in the backseat and it felt like such a teamwork thing. Such an untraditional thing, but such a teamwork thing.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

So I felt like that was a moment that was like really highlighted that chapter of our lives.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I love that. I love that. Like the idea of like, sometimes I think about like, I don't I don't sail. But like when you see like those people that race those sailboats, and they have like the harness on them and the boat is like looks like it's going to tip over and they're like leaning out on the outside. And there's that moment of like, is this thing going to crash and this is all going to be awful? Or like, are we going to win this race?

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah!

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

And I think about like So much of starting a business, starting a family, all of those pieces are like, that's what's happening there. Like that's what is, that's what's coming at you is like, today do we go in the water? Or today do we like carry on and make the turn? Like it’s, a juggle.

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah, I feel like that's a good visual representation for just modern motherhood in general, you know?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Allie Karagozian:

I like that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, we're all trying to stay out of the water.

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I love it. Well, I love what you're doing. I'm so excited that you came on because I think that the message of creating community and the way to support mothers and to take a skill set that you have and to put it out there in the world and also to not understate the importance of like, it involves you having a hugely vulnerable thing. out in the world. And so like, that's a, that's a serious amount of, of grit and a serious amount of like, passion that you have to have for something to say, like, you know, nobody stands up on stage and is like, everything is perfect. You know, it's like the people that they stand up and they say, like, I experienced this, this is what happened. This is how I work through it. These are the skills that I have. I want to help. I want to create this space like that is, it's phenomenal. What you're doing is phenomenal. So I really hope that this thing goes and grows because people are able to connect in a way that works.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you so much.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

So I just, yeah, what you're doing is amazing. And I would love for you to tell everybody where they can find you, all of that info. And then I'll also put it in the show notes so people can link from there. But I would love to have you share that, please.

Allie Karagozian:

For sure. So I, my only social media I'm on right now is Instagram is where I hang out. So @holidngboth is my Instagram page. Um, my website is www.holdingbothllc.com. And then I will be launching a secondary infertility podcast at the beginning of the year. So end of January.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yay!

Allie Karagozian:

I'm looking forward to that. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That's awesome. And if you have, yeah, I mean, if anyone, anyone that's listening is going through this and I'm assuming that launching a podcast means that you are looking for people to be on it. So if people are, if people want to share, then to find, to find you through email. 

Allie Karagozian:

Yeah, absolutely. And my email is Ali at holding both LLC.com. And my goal, my podcast is gonna be to elevate secondary infertility voices and make it more part of the infertility conversation. So very excited.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That’s awesome.

Allie Karagozian:

Thank you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Well, thank you

Allie Karagozian:

And thank you so much for having me on. This is awesome. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Awesome. Well, the more OT is the merrier. So thank you for coming on

Allie Karagozian:

I could not agree more.