Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Hello and welcome back to the AND/BOTH Podcast. I am here with Jenna Hermans today. We are gonna hear all about Jenna. And first of all, I wanted to start by saying hello and welcome. Thank you for coming on. It's lovely to meet you.

Jenna Hermans:

Thank you, Ashley. It's such a pleasure to be here.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yes, and I also, it's one of those things where like, you have four children and I have four children, and we are busy people. So I don't normally sound like this. But I was like, if we can find a time for you and I to get together to record a podcast, and I sound like I have four children in November, then here it is. So this is not my normal voice, but I just want to put it out there because there's been a few episodes where I didn't know. You know, it's just one of those things, like people probably don't care, but like, let's just put it out there anyway, so.

Jenna Hermans:

Is it your tired end of year voice? End of day?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

It's my, you know, I think my kids like, they're really good at sharing the colds with each other. Like that's, that's their jam. They're like, I've got something that I need to share with everybody. And so that comes on. But I digress… So first of all, what I would love is for you to tell everybody all about you all about this wonderful book that you have written and all of the lovely things that you do.

Jenna Hermans:

Thank you. So I am the co-founder and COO of a transformation agency called Be Courageous. My husband and I started this business six and a half years ago. And during that time, I published a book which came out this past May called Chaos to Calm, Five Ways Busy Parents Can Break Free from Overwhelm. And I'm also a high performance coach, like you said, mom of four, and do you know all the things that a working full-time homemaker, full-time mom, full-time job person, author, coach, operations and finance, full-time of all the things. That is life in a nutshell.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

full time, full time.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm. That is a busy, that's a busy situation to be in. How does that work? Here's my question that I always like. So my husband owns his own company and I have my own company. We would not do well. We have worked together in the past on other things, but like to own a company together. How does that work?

Jenna Hermans:

You know, we started working together when we were dating. And it was on a micro scale. We did some project engagement together and realized, wow, we can compartmentalize the various types of relationships that we have that encompass our partnership. And it worked really well. Our ways of communicating with each other and knowing where each other's superpowers are and strengths and weaknesses, not stepping on each other's toes and being able to lean on each other versus fighting for the same airspace.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yes.

Jenna Hermans:

So when we decided to start our own business, we knew that this would work well for us because we've done this in more micro ways before, and we have a lot of really effective communication tools in both of our toolboxes. We're both coaches and come from backgrounds of extreme. personal development and business backgrounds as well. So we knew that with our personalities and also with our different levels of expertise, that we would be able to complement each other while in this business space.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I love it. I was listening to Layla Hormozzi's podcast. I love her. She's just like very like cut and dry, but she and her husband have built like these incredible businesses together and she's like said the same thing. She was like, no, like work is work and home is home and like we are able to do that. So it works. But I feel like that's not that's not a common thing for people to be like, you know, the dishwasher. but also this meeting, you know what I mean?

Jenna Hermans:

Hahaha, yeah!

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Like you've really, you've got to make some big boundaries, some big barriers there. That's awesome.

Jenna Hermans:

I think the hardest part is when you're having pillow talk and you're like, can we talk about a client for a second? And there's times when I'm like, nope, absolutely not. Or he'll turn around and say, no, we are not bringing that in here right now. No boundaries.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

You’re like, it is dark outside. I am not working in the dark. Thank you very much. All right, so your background I'm fascinated by because I read your about me thing and it's, so you have a background in psychology, organizational management and HR. I really feel like that is like the professional credentialing of a parent. So you've done like all of these things and then you're like, oh now I have four kids. Like, I don't know where, what else you could possibly put in there that would make it more like carryover from that into life. So tell me about that.

Jenna Hermans:

Well, I have one thing to add, which adds to my resume that made me parent ready, and that is that I ran a preschool for five years as well.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh my god.

Jenna Hermans:

I know.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

So not only do you have all of the education, you actually have all the supplies to make it happen.

Jenna Hermans:

navigate that zoo, I can navigate a zoo at home too. Sure thing.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, sure, whatever. Grown up zoo, kids zoo, all the zoos, just come on over to my house.

Jenna Hermans:

Love it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That's like a that's a very windy road in preschool to like high performance.

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah, you know, it kind of all happened serendipitously. I wouldn't say that it was intentional coming out of college with a psychology degree. I thought, how can I be the best parent that I could be as a 21 year old, right? That that was definitely not in my headspace. But I come from a from a headspace of curiosity, right? I've always been deeply curious about humans and about this human existence, how the mind works, how we navigate, you know, the species navigates our environment. And so it was kind of natural that I'd end up in environments where they are human centric, like education, like HR, the human side of business with my organizational management degree instead of going a traditional MBA route, because I wanted to understand and get more tools around how can I support humans in business versus, you know, strategy and those other really cool things that other people do really well.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yes.

Jenna Hermans:

So going that was kind of the thread throughout it all was the idea of how can it would to really to nurture my curious nature of human beings in all their various states.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I love that. I just love that it doesn't have like, it's not, it doesn't have like a boundary to it in terms of like, like it's, it is that central theme, but you're like, Hmm, preschool. All right. Let's give this a shot. Oh, let's do HR. Like whatever, like you've, you did the whole lifespan. I always joke that OT school is like how to be a mommy because there's so much, we talk about like so much development and so many pieces of that, but like, this, like you, you made steps. You made steps along the way to like fill in the blanks, like no wonder. So how old are your kids?

Jenna Hermans:

They are currently 7, 13, 15, and 16.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh, teenagers. I'm scared of teenagers.

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah, you should be. They're great, they're great, don't worry. Ha ha ha.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I think it's going to be great. My oldest is 10, so I think it's going to be great. I just feel like it's like that roller coaster ride. It's the ride up the roller coaster that's the worst part because once it's going, you're like, all right, I guess we're going, right? We're hanging on. We're all trying not to fall out the car as we're spinning and all of that. But it's that ticking up. I think that maybe that's where I'm at. But teenagers is busy. That's a busy house.

Jenna Hermans:

It is. Yeah, it's a busy house. And, you know, I was talking to someone the other day who has a bunch of littles. I think they have three kids, seven, five and two. And they said, does it get easier? And I said, no, but it gets it gets different, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

It just gets different. The things that were hard when the kids are younger are not things that are hard anymore. So sure, that part gets easier. But then there's new different challenges that arise and navigating those. keeps you on your toes as a parent, right, is with the idea of as they develop so and change and mature that we do as well. And we have new boundaries and new things that we're considering as they have new things that they're considering. Right. So the job doesn't get easier, it gets more complicated.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's the like, like I always say, like yesterday was so easy. It doesn't matter what happened yesterday, but like you, you made it to the other side of the day. And even if it was the worst day ever, it's you're still here. And the idea of like, yeah, like it's just a different heart, right? Like when they're brand new and you're like, I'm not sure I can get both eyes open today. Oh, my God. And then they and then they're like middle school dance. And it's like. I'm not sure I want to open both eyes today. Maybe that's just my guess, since I'm not there yet, but...

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah, more the high school dance.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh no.

Jenna Hermans:

yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

So tell me or tell everybody, not just me, but tell everybody, this book, I am curious about this. Five Strategies. So tell me about it, please and thank you.

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah. So the five strategies are kind of like five umbrellas, right? They're umbrella topics.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

And the first one being efficiency, right? The idea is how do you utilize your time and energy the most efficiently as you can in order to support what you're trying to achieve, right? Which ultimately is hopefully groundedness, calm, showing up as your best self for your family, for yourself, for your community, for your work. The second being habits and how do you create that habitual infrastructure for yourself, right? And noticing what habits serve you and what don't, et cetera. The third is communication. How do you communicate effectively with those around you? Again, all in support of your calm, your groundedness to get the support that you need as a busy parent. The fourth is community. It's about the people that you have around you. Right? The ones that you choose and those who you don't and those who you want to bring in closer and those that maybe you want some more space from.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

And again, all in support of your calm. And the last one is self care, taking care of you. And I'm not talking about, you know, self care Sunday, let's go get a manicure and a facial and a massage. No, I'm not talking about that surface level self care. I'm talking about deep systemic self care. you know, you can do to start your day, to end your day, to anchor your energy throughout the day and things that are more micro moments and intentional moments of refilling your cup that take care of the self of you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yes. Let's hang there for a second. So for you. So all right. Two questions. And I'll try and remember the second one. First of all, where did where did this come from? So like you're like, OK, I've got a bunch of kids. They're all like going in different directions. I have this business. I do these things. I do these things. I'm going to write a book. Where did that start? Where, why, how all of that?

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah, so it all started when I was not okay, right? My hero's journey, so to speak. After having our fourth child, and for, I guess, a touch of backstory, one sentence, one liner, the three big kids are not my biological children. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Okay.

Jenna Hermans:

I came into their lives when they were very young. They were three, two and zero. And I've been in their lives now for almost 13 years. So. for full transparency. I did not birth four people. I raised four people and birthed one and took the three on when they were very little. So that is an important part of the story. And also just adding color to this person who's talking on this microphone right now for who’s listening.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Right

Jenna Hermans:

So I have we moved from Los Angeles to San Francisco, had got married. We add a fourth child to our family, and then we start our business six months later. That's when we start Be Courageous. And at that point, I had what I could call identity whiplash. I went from very single, doing my own thing in the heart of Los Angeles, surrounded by family and friends, taking care of me and my cat, right, and my preschool. But otherwise, not a lot of responsibility. as an independent woman doing my own thing with no kids and no partner, great, wonderful times.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

To very short after that, right, within just a couple of years living in San Francisco with no built-in community or support system for kids, business, traveling husbands. So he's very client-focused, excuse me, client-facing and travels a lot internationally and all around the country. I find myself in this state after we've started this business and have a have an infant and three kids in elementary school. And I'm having consistent panic attacks pretty much every day. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Um, yeah. 

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah, it was a bit much. It was a bit much to say the least. And there was one day that it hit me. It was kind of like what you said, Ashley, I have all the credentials that have set me up to be a mom. I have the psychology degree, the organizational management degree. I ran a preschool, 15 plus years of HR experience. I can so use all of this experience and education, bring it into my home to make this run so much more smoother so that I could show up as a much better parent, as a better partner, as a business partner, and also just to take care of me because I was losing it every day.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

So. So, yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, no, go ahead. Keep going. I'm like, yeah, just a general like, yeah, stretch that out for a while.

Jenna Hermans:

Mm hmm. Yeah, it's you can anyone who's been relatively close to that in their existence understands it's a lot. It's a lot. So I made the intentional choice to bring change into this existence. I didn't want to just merely survive it anymore. I wanted to enjoy this life that I've chosen. I wanted to enjoy the days and my kids. and this business and just, and me, I wanted to look in the mirror and be like, yeah, I like her. She's cool. I know who that gal is and I like spending time with her because she's awesome. But all of that had been gone. So anyway, make the intentional choice, gonna bring goodness and joy back into my life. And that was what I did.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

And for about a year and a half, I was implementing different tools and strategies, efficiencies. building up my community, getting better with my communication and honing in on my self-care. And come those 18 months later, I am a completely different person. I swear, unrecognizable, right? I look in the mirror and I'm like, yes, that I know her. She is cool. She's got it together. Like the flame that had been on prior to in my former self that had been completely blown out. Had come back again, the pilot light got lit and the gas had got turned on and all of a sudden, I'm like, yes, I this is how it should be. This is me owning my life, owning my shit, taking care of me and my family and my business and my relationship the way that I want to be doing this and feeling good about all of it. So that that's a really long. I'm meeting new families for the first time at our youngest preschool, right? For anyone who's gone to preschool for the first time and you're like, oh, people with similarly aged kids, let's all get to know each other and be on this journey together, right? So we start sharing each other's stories, right? I'm telling them, okay, four kids, business, from Los Angeles, traveling husband, blah, blah. And they go, wait, wait. So you just told us your story. You must have hired help. And I say, no. And they're like, wait, you must have, you know, friends, family, something around people who help you or you're like, how are you keeping your shit together?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

How are you not like, how are you showing up every day with your hair brushed and clothing that looks like it's, you know, somewhat of an outfit put together. And I say, well, you should have seen me a year and a half ago, because that was not the case. But now here are the things that I do that have kept me together with the few, you know, additional supportive resources that we have in our home and with our family. And the response was overwhelming actually of people going, wait, how do you do all of this? Tell me your witchcraft. I want to understand because they have more resources and fewer responsibilities, right? Fewer children and family around and communities. They've grown up here, whatever it is. And I have less, right? Fewer resources and more responsibilities. Yet I seem to have my shit together better than they do.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

And so after getting asked the question so much, I thought, huh, you know what, let me actually start writing down just for myself. Cause I was curious, right? What are the things that I do that are helpful to me? What are the things that I think? What's my approach when I'm met with conflict with my kids, with my partner, within my business, in, in home life, right? What are the things that are helping me that I didn't do 18 months ago that were missing when I was having that hard time. So let me get that all down. And after about a year of just journaling, I had a lot of content, a lot of content, and that became the basis of the book.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Love that. I love that there's this idea of like, I don't love that what happens is that you basically have to feel like you've got dragged behind a truck in order to be like, okay, now I've hit the wall. Now this is all not fun anymore. This is not what I wanted. No, thank you. No, thank you. No, thank you. But like, the fact that it's not I just think I just think the idea of the village is like, it's gone, right? Like, you either have a thing, you have a system, you have whatever, or you don't. And I think that more often, because of choices that like different ideals that we have about parenting, because of proximity, because of finances, because of time, because of, for any number of reasons, this idea of the village is not, I don't think it's coming back, but. the more people I talk to like that have, so I talk to people that have two kids, right? Or one kid or two kids, and they're like, this is like a lot, you know what I mean? It's like they're like stuck in like the middle of the wave pool thing. But when I talk to people that have more than two kids, and especially people that have four kids, and I felt this like myself for sure, is like once you get to four, you're like, no one's coming for me. Like no one is coming to save me, whether I want them to or not. No one is gonna show up like that, like idea of like someone's gonna like break down the door and like clean your house and like do all that. You're like, okay, well, what do I have? I have all this experience. I have common sense to be able to like draw from one and put into the other. And I've like, the days are going, so why not make them better? You know, like, why not just try something out and see what we can do and layer it in there? Because it's just this idea of like, it can be really hard and then it can be over, or it can be really hard. I mean, this is why I started my own company. I started it with two kids, because I was like, buried, totally buried, completely, utterly upside down. Like, let's take the skills that I have and turn this into something. And like, I just, I love... I love the idea that it is like, you know, you're upside down and sideways, but you still have the wherewithal to be like, don't want this. And I can get myself out of this. And it's not gonna be easy, but like time is happening either way.

Jenna Hermans:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

And I also love that the idea of self care is not a bubble bath, that I could just drag out my soap box and like. chant about for hours and hours on end. It's just like meeting these basic needs is not self care.

Jenna Hermans:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That's not what we're talking about. So I just, I love the idea that like the categories that you have, these five umbrellas are like, they're layered in a way that makes sense, which I mean, you know this because this is the living experience that you have, but they're also in a way that is not. I feel like as moms, when we're upside down and sideways, you get sold a solution that's not really a solution. It's more of that bubble bath and slippers and all of that. And you're like, no, I don't have a village, I'm screwed, I need help, where are the tools? And so you actually have tools and strategies that you're putting out there to be like, no, this is for real because I help myself.

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah. And I, you know, I grew up with a single mother. My parents divorced when I was two, and I spent majority of time with my mom and she was solo. And so I was I witnessed firsthand, a woman, a mother take care of, you know, her family, she went to school during the day, excuse me, she worked during the day. I also have ADD. So words come out strange sometimes, not always in order.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

You know, it's, you can, you're in a safe place. You just let it, let it roll. Just whatever, whatever happens, happens. Cause sometimes I have the attention span of a squirrel as well. So again, okay.

Jenna Hermans:

Perfect. I’m in good company.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

So your mom…

Jenna Hermans:

Yes- I feel safe. So my mom works full time during the day. She actually went to school at night as well, getting her associate's degree at community college and had a child. And so I think by being raised by a single mom, add that to the resume of the things that helped support me being the mother that I am now. That I. didn't necessarily, it wasn't ingrained in me that there has to be, you know, someone to rely on or someone that they are responsible for my well-being and my happiness and me and, and in the nuclear unit that there has to be this other party that I, that I'm looking to, to support making sure that I'm taken care of. Right. And so I think with that in mind, or rather in the fabric of my own DNA, and of my life and life experience that when it came time for me to see like, this is not okay, I didn't look to see husband, you're the one who's supposed to be making this okay for me. Why are you not taking care of me better? Don't you see that I'm losing my shit all the time? It was no, if I want things to change, I need to be the one to do it. Right. And so I think what also made it not even I think I know. I know that what made this successful was that I did one thing at a time, right? Start with one thing and then build upon that, right? And so just like the idea that the Grand Canyon wasn't built in a day, right? Like it was one little tiny stream of water carving its way through some rock and slowly but surely it made this huge crevice in the ground. Just like that, it was slowly but surely 1%, moving through that consistency wearing down resistance, that persistence of let me try, let me try, I'm gonna make it different, I'm gonna do a 1% improvement and slowly but surely profound change happened. And it started with the concept of, what's one thing every day that I found so incredibly stressful? That every single day, And it's not necessarily something related to my kids or my husband, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

It's just a thing of responsibility, a task that every day I'm like, Oh, really that again, right. And that was dinner. And I thought, huh, let me just start with dinner. And that was, I started, that was literally the first thing that I did when I made this change was I implemented meal planning. I said, here's what we're going to do family. You know, it's Monday, it's Sunday right now. We're going to plan out our dinners for the entire week. What do we want to have? And then make that list, grocery shop against that list, and then every day come 4.30, 5 o'clock instead of being like, oh my gosh, now I have to be creative and I have to problem solve around what am I going to make for dinner tonight? It's like, oh, it's listed right there and I have everything that I need. The cortisol that is saved from not having that stress every single day. that set me up for the rest of the night. I mean, rather, it influenced positively the rest of the night with not having that stressor, right? That one thing. And it seems so minute, but it's not, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm. I think especially like what you were saying before about being single and being responsible for the cat and when you're in preschool, you're hanging out with kids, but there's an end. People are coming to pick them up and stuff like that. I think that globally, I don't know globally, but I think across the board, we underestimate how difficult it is to feed human beings day after day. Like, If you're leaving the hospital with a baby, like you're like, all right, I'm gonna like keep them like clothed and they're gonna have a sleep schedule and they're gonna have all of this, yada, yada. The real kick in the teeth is the fact that you have to feed them three times a day plus snacks. And that God only knows what that looks like for teenagers because my children right now could eat a small school bus worth of. snacks. And it's just like people like, it is so much work to feed people. Because you spend time trying to feed yourself so that you could feed people or feeding people or figuring out what people eat and all of that stuff. And then people don't eat the same thing. And then they eat, you know, they eat it one day, but they don't eat another day. And it's just like, there's so much bandwidth that goes into just trying to keep people alive and fed. It's so much. It's like, I think that like that, that you cannot overstate how much of time and energy it takes to do that. So I love that that's your starting point. What are some of the other early changes that you made?

Jenna Hermans:

Some of the early, some of the other early changes that I made had to do with my mental state and recognizing that, you know, that was also something that needed to change, right? I felt very resentful. I was in a very victim mentality and with that anxiety every day, right? Of like, one, this is all on me. And I'm, if anything, I'm angry about that, right? I'm angry at the kid's biological mom that she's not here. and I'm angry at my husband because he's traveling, but doing it even though it's for our work, right, like my mind wasn't right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

And so I shifted back to a practice that I used to have when I was younger. And by younger, I mean, I've been doing this since I could write and I used to journal. I've had, I mean, I have like loads of journals and that was always my, like a therapy for me. So I returned. to the journal. And that was something that really helped me to process because I've always noticed when I was in a hard moment in any phase of life that I was in, I would go to the journal and that would help me work through it. So I intentionally decided every night I'm going to journal. And if I felt compelled to in the morning, I would journal as well. Even if it was just me writing down today. fucking sucked. Starting there, right? And writing a..

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

all the reasons why.

Jenna Hermans:

But it was so cathartic to get it out and that it made space, right? It made space for different thoughts to show up. It made space for gratitude. It made space for positivity because I got out all the things, right? I got out all the anger. I got out all the things that were making me upset and resentful and angry. And so after I got that all out... I'm saying, I'm angry and I'm mad and I'm having a fit on paper. Or out loud, sure, great. I do that with my clients when they're so angry and overwhelmed. I'm like, get angry. Don't push it down. Get there.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

Say all the things you want to say.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Get it out

Jenna Hermans:

all, it's like, oh. I'm like, now what? They're like, well, I said everything I wanted to say about that. Great. Are you ready to talk about what's next? Yes, I am. Great. Same thing on paper. I got out all the anger, all the things. I'm like, this fucking sucked and that fucking sucked and the whole list of things that sucked and go into, well, actually, but my eldest did this thing today that was really cool. And then I saw the baby crawl to a toy that really excited them and he smiled and just these little things that then all of a sudden were starting to show up because I'd gotten rid of the gunk. And that was a part of the processing. And that really supported my head space and moving through the anger and the resentment and slowly but surely seeing that in gratitude, in processing that I was able to start showing up differently because I was doing my work. I was doing my internal mental work.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, I like that you like I think it's important to point out like, there's so many, there's so many like strategies and techniques and things like that. Like this is what I was saying about like solutions that people are handed. But like for somebody that doesn't journal, or doesn't like love doing that, like if you just said to them like you need to journal and then all will be fine. that's not their self care. So I really like that, like your, your strategy is true to you. And it's true to it's, it's coming back to yourself. It's your essence. It is, it is part of what makes you you. And that like knowing what that is, and being in touch with what that is, and being able to implement that strategy is, I'm gonna guess why it works so well. You know, like if you read something or you were like, okay, I'm gonna do meditation, but like you don't like to meditate. You know, it's like sitting there and you're like, why am I not better? Like why is this everything? Like this lady on Instagram meditates and look at her. Like her life is amazing. I mean, the pictures of her life are amazing. Let's be honest about Instagram for a second. But like the idea of doing something that is true to you, is what's gonna be helpful.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

And it worked, right?

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah. And it was trial and error also, right after especially after the like the first things came into play, right? It did become like trial and error of does this thing work? Does that thing work? And it goes through phases and it ebbs and flows also right? Like I'll fall out of journaling for one then I noticed that I'm like, I'm like, Oh, I'm doing good. I don't need to intentionally journal every single day anymore. And then I'll not do it for months and then come back to it again. Or when I notice that I'm going to maybe some escaping, right? 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

If I find that I'm teetering a little too much into escaping into Hulu and Netflix, oh, maybe I need to come back into presence and do journaling or meditating or something else that brings me joy or gets me in my head or out of my head. Right? And so like one of the things that I started to do also was meet people out in the world and intentionally build relationships with them. It's like, oh, at the coffee shop, a place that I would go often, right? There's a place called Long Way and I love going there. It's a clothing shop in the front. It's a coffee shop in the back and that's where I wrote actually a lot of this book. And I would go there and see some familiar faces and started having conversation with some of these people. The next thing I know. We're walking in, hey, how's it going, Kevin? Oh, Jenna, doing great, you know? And the barista knows my order and knows my name and I feel like I'm a part of something. And so I'm not so isolated and lonely in this parenting experience, which is inherently in this society incredibly isolating. And the more kids you have, it just feels like the more isolated you become, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yes.

Jenna Hermans:

As you know, Ashley, with your four children as well. So it was, you know, the intentionality of trying, like, let me see if I can find people that I can count on in this world, right? People and build relationships and not feel like I'm so alone in this existence, even though, yes, I have a wonderful, amazing partner, love them so much, I have beautiful family, love them so much, but to outside of this home, outside of, you know, what's under this roof and these four walls, there's a big world out there and connecting to that. was another part of the coming back to myself and finding my calm was connection with what's out there. Whether that was people and nature, but it was getting away from, if you can see, you cannot see my hands, but I am hovering them around me in a home-like manner in my biome of hand gesture.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

The out there-ness. Ha ha ha!

Jenna Hermans:

To get out and connect right that was a big one

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

So where does the timeline of all of this happen in terms of the pandemic? Because I feel like you have, it's like, it seems like, I'm trying to do the math backwards, that a lot of the introspection and a lot of the strategy and things like that came at a time when it was super pressured. And then as you move further along, that also sort of coincides with being able to, again, like come out into the world because things are no longer crazy.

Jenna Hermans:

For lack of a better word, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I mean that’s, yeah, exactly

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah, so when I was doing all of this work, right, those 18 months of really coming back to myself and intentionally choosing to do things differently in that trial and error phase, that was pre-pandemic. And in the reflections of that year of reflecting and journaling of, hmm, what did I do? Right? That was before, again, before the pandemic and maybe even at the beginning parts of the pandemic as well, because I was working on the book proposal during lockdown. Yeah. So I guess I can be very grateful that I was not sheltering in place and losing my mind at the same time.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, yeah, like you really, you got ahead of the curve on that one.

Jenna Hermans:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

That was, you, you had, so you had the strategies in place when the world is like, all right, we're just going to take a pause for a long time, depending on where you were in the world and where you were in this country, you know, that's all relative, but like having those strategies in place. Cause I think that what, you know, it really, that whole period of time created this super pressure cooker. which comes with that feeling of, I've moved, I have four kids. You are very isolated and you are high stress. So like your experience, like if you had gone into that, if that had started at the beginning of the pandemic. Just a no. Just a no for you. Just a general no.

Jenna Hermans:

huge no. I mean, I feel for those parents that became either for you know, I think, okay, let me back up a second. There are pros and cons to every phase of parenthood and identity shifting, having happened either pre pandemic, post pandemic or during pandemic. Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

And there are definitely, you know, the pros of having your first child and being in lockdown of being able to just be present with your first born is a gift or with any child with any young being any baby to be able to be present with them and not have that pressure of right going through the fourth trimester. and beyond in that first year and needing to navigate, traveling to work and childcare and all of that. I mean, what a gift, right? That is a gift. Also, how incredibly challenging it is to do that with just you and if you have a partner and your partner in a home with no one allowed to come and help you, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

While you're navigating it all. So, whatever phase one is in, I'd say there's pros and cons to to all of it. And the ultimate thing that I can say is that I'm grateful for my experience happening the way that it did, because it couldn't have been anything else. If it was meant to be something else, it would have been. And that's how it is for everyone, right? If it was meant to be different, then it would be. But it's not. So the acceptance and loving of reality, grateful for the reality in which we have, and moving forward because everything else is just suffering. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yes.

Jenna Hermans:

Right by saying, oh, but you had it easier than me because it was pre pandemic or it was during pandemic, whatever it was, right? There's the grass is always greener. But as soon as we can accept and love our own realities, then we can move forward and, and say this is how it is and have the conviction in that and be able to stand on our two feet on solid ground and be like, that's how it is. That's how it was for me. That's my journey, how it was meant to be. Let's go. Let's do this. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, it's so funny because my oldest was seven and I literally came home from the hospital the week before the world shut down with my fourth. And so like, I always, I joked, I was like, oh, the whole world is on maternity leave with me. And then I was like, this is quite extended. This is quite a process. But I love the idea that you... You know, so you have these the strategy you are working on bringing this information out into the world and you are like doing something to help others. Because it is you know it's that idea of like okay I did this these are all the things that are great and they're wonderful but instead of just like. Carrying on your merry way you say okay no I'm going to help other people not feel like this and that and I mean that is being a human centric. individual and being somebody who is a coach and in terms of like, performance and, and having all of the experience that you have like that all that all tracks, right? It all makes sense. But the idea of like, I just I feel like the buy in for people on strategies and having to have strategies and having to like think about things differently. 

I feel like the pandemic is like the best example of really just like having your nose hair ripped out and being like, Oh my God, what just happened? Like I, you know, like I think that we would all continue to just try and kick the ball down the road for as long as we could. If we did not all have this abrupt worlds crashing down, holy shit, what do we do now? So, you know, I think like you're saying like if things, things are happening for a reason, like you're able to now test in real time, like in the most extreme amount of pressure, in the most extreme amount of like, you know, closed, everything is closed, like resources and all of that is closed, does what I'm doing make sense? Does it carry on? Do these strategies hold? So that you know that like speaking of standing on your own two feet, you can say, this is what I did to unscrew everything. And this is how I moved through this period of time to add to the, I can't think of the word, to add to the like authenticity of the experience and of the process.

Jenna Hermans:

Mm hmm. Yeah. And you know, what was interesting is during the pandemic as well, like I, yes, I had a lot of tools, but I also forgot a lot of the tools, right? Like there's things that you start doing, right? And, and I have so many things that I know that brought me out of that, you know, that place that 18 months before the place, what should we call that place the pre-newly evolved Jenna place should be. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Hahaha

Jenna Hermans:

I need to like put that in the era's terms right like this is my pre Renaissance.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

back in the day.

Jenna Hermans:

And this is like my Neanderthal days and how you know, there were things that worked in and they become implemented and they're just like a part of the routine and the structure of things. And then with any big shift, right? Like we're worried. We're just We're trying to adapt to this new environment we find ourselves in, whether that's a pandemic or a new child or a divorce or some other crises, right? Or something happens with a child of yours or a family member or with yourself, and you get thrown off of that standing on your own two feet, feeling grounded and with conviction again, right? 

And so that happened, I mean, during the pandemic and then post pandemic, I did have a child that went through. a really tough time. We had a big health crisis that was very scary. And, you know, I got thrown off kilter. And thankfully, that was the time of my book where it was time to edit. So I was literally going with a fine tooth comb through the manuscript through this book and being reminded of how to take care of me again, because I had been all consumed back into what was going on with my child. And so by going through all of it again, I was like, oh yeah, again, I have all the tools. Let me use them again, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

Just like when I had that aha moment of the pre-Renaissance Jenna era of wait, I have all the tools, the psychology degree, the organizational management degree, the preschool experience and the HR experience. I have everything that I need. And then during the pandemic, things got really hard again, right? I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. I mean, I ended up almost breaking down a door because, oh my gosh, I'm putting myself back there. I haven't thought about this memory in a while. It was the, so the three big kids all had homework, right? They were one, two in middle school, one in elementary school. The two bigs had finished their homework. The third one hadn't yet. They're like at home homework, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

The third one had asked earlier in the day if we could play a board game altogether as a family. And the bigs had finished, the two eldest finished and they started the board game without the third. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh god.

Jenna Hermans:

And I was so angry. I was like, dude, he was the one that asked for this. Wait for him. Come on, wait for him, right? So I'm definitely really upset with him. about this. And then I go to my room to take a breath to be alone to not, you know, lose my shit on them. And the youngest, the fourth who this has become a trend at this point, had locked my bedroom door from the inside. So I couldn't get in.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Awesome.

Jenna Hermans:

And yeah, I just I lost it. I completely lost it and and had to remind myself as I'm literally kicking and punching this door, I'm reminding myself “we're in a pandemic, we're probably not gonna be able to get this repaired until who knows how long. do not actually break the door. You need to have this door.” So I stopped trying to break it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I’m sorry.

Jenna Hermans:

So I Thankfully, because he had been doing this so much recently, I'd had a little toothpick above the door frame. And then, you know, just put it in, poke it and then let myself in. Um, but then in that moment, after going in the room, realizing I'm just, again, in a little room and I have a lot of feelings, big emotions and I'm angry. And so I go in the room and think, I actually don't want to be in here. I can't be inside. And I put on my shoes and I just left and didn't come back for two hours. She's like, bye.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

And I was just done. And this was about a month into the pandemic. And I was really, you know, I felt proud. I'm like, it took me four weeks of shelter in place to lose my shit. And there it was. But what was really beautiful, the beauty that came out of that was, so I went outside, I left for two hours, but what I did is I just walked. I just went walking for those two hours outside. It was like one in the afternoon maybe. So it was a beautiful day, right? It's spring, it's April. It's beautiful outside. And having done that, I came back to the realization that being outside, being in nature, being alone, having these moments, are things that fill me up. And if I were to do even just 15 minutes of this every day, I would be such a happier person, a better parent, better partner, right? Because all I would need to do is just go outside. 15 minutes. If I could get two hours again, great, right? I'm not going to storm out of the house every day, but maybe that could be, you know, a prophylactic.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Right.

Jenna Hermans:

If I go outside every day for 10, 15, 30 minutes, whatever the amount of time is, then that could be a part of my self care during this really challenging time. And that was one of my reminders to self connection, nature. I mean, we are nature beings, right? We have to get outside. We have to get outside, wear a mask, do whatever you need to do, get outside.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, it's that I love the idea. Well, I don't love the idea, but I could just imagine, like, you know, when you've like lost your marbles and all of a sudden everyone like figures it out. You know, you're just like, I'm all done. I'm all done times a lot. And then you just leave and there's just silence and then silence when you come back. And it's like, all right, everything is fine now. Here's what's going on. You know, that's all, that's a whole other layer of things, right? Like, here's what's going on with me, this is like yada yada, like all of the conversation that happens around it. But again, you come back to like listening to what you actually need. Because I think that most people, and especially in the pandemic, would have just gone into the room and bounced around like a squash ball for a while, or a racquetball, and would have been, none, nothing would have been. resolved or helped or brought back down. So I love that idea of like, it's so true, right? You're like, I'm gonna lose my mind, however, I cannot get this door fixed. I cannot do the thing. Like, I don't want the consequences. Like how to know that you're a full-fledged adult, right? You're like losing my mind. At the same time, I'm having the conversation with myself of like, the consequences of your actions are A, expensive and B, annoying. So you need to stop before you get to the end of this road and you're just like, okay, now I will go for a walk.

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Like, it's just like, you're all grown up and it's like the worst, right? You're just like, I wanna do that. Like I wanna break the door. I wanna lay on the floor and be like, ah! Like I don't know how many times I've said to my, one of my kids like, do you know how good it would feel to just lay on the floor of the grocery store and lose your mind?

Jenna Hermans:

Ugh.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Someone would take me to a hospital, but like. Like, I, you know, your kid's losing it in Target, and you're just like, man, I'm so jealous.

Jenna Hermans:

So jealous, so jealous.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Like, how good?

Jenna Hermans:

It's so nice. So there’s actually an adult form of, I wanna say tantrum, but emotional release that's been coined by a woman, and I'm gonna butcher her last name, but her moniker is Mama Gina. Have you heard of her?

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

I have not.

Jenna Hermans:

Oh, okay. So she wrote a book, she's written multiple books, but the one that's most notable, the one that really made impact for me that was a part of my coming back to myself is called pussy, a reclamation. And it really just reconnected me to the things that light me up. Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Hermans:

And she calls it turn on, right? She relates everything back to that the pussy, right. It's like your GPS, where are you going? It's the great pussy in the sky is telling you and showing you the way.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh god.

Jenna Hermans:

The alliterations are phenomenal. Anyway, but one of the practices that she talks about in her book and I had the opportunity to actually be with her in life form pre-pandemic is the concept of swamping where you actually have a time, it's carved out and you get shit to break or pillows to punch. or a safe place for you to let it all go. Let it all go. Wear things you don't care if you tear off your body. Wear a trash bag if you feel like trash, right? And just put on some music that you can rage to and let it out. Just let it all out and cry and scream and have that be in a container. right, that you have this container of space to have this experience and have it be, you know, whether witnessed by someone else so they can see and feel you and you can feel heard and seen right in that space or that and it's safe, right? It's physically safe and no one's going to call the cops and you can say there's this crazy lady, right? Granted, I did get the cops called on me once before when I did swamping with a group of ladies. In Santa Cruz, we got the call. We got the cops call on us. We put a note up that just said, we're just working through generational rage and trauma. Don't worry.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Hehehe

Jenna Hermans:

Everything's fine. It is the most phenomenal feeling in the world to create that container and let it out and have that emotional outburst and target feeling. that feeling that we're so jealous of, of watching a toddler or child just let it all out and not give a shit, and to do that for ourselves. It is the most magnificent thing.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, yeah, just don't do it in the Target checkout.

Jenna Hermans:

No, don't do it there because the cops will be called. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

And Target doesn’t wanna deal. 

Jenna Hermans:

Yeah. If you don’t want security called, don’t do it there. 

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh, well, I love, I am so excited to connect with you and I'm so excited to have you on. And I just, I love the, I love the authentic help without the whitewashing of what- of what the experience is that leads to help. And I think that that's awesome. I think it's just really, it's so timely, you know, having, you don't time these things, but it is timely given what we're all kind of working through and cruising through over the last couple of years. So I would love for you to tell everybody where they can find you, where they can buy your book, where they can, all of the things, how to find Jenna.

Jenna Hermans:

How to find Jenna. So a quick Google search will do that for you, Jenna Hermans. You can also find me at bcrgs.com. That's Be Courageous Without Any Vowels and jennahermans.com.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Oh, I like it. 

Jenna Hermans:

So there's the bit for business because not only am I the queen of calm and there's jennahermans.com with all the calm things, there's also courage, which is a big part of my life, hence Be Courageous being my business.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah.

Jenna Hermans:

Be Courageous for Courage, jennahermans.com. for Calm, at Jenna Z. Hermans for Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn, Jenna Hermans. And then the book you can find anywhere books are sold. You know, it support local, go to your local bookstore. If they don't have it in stock currently, you can ask them to get it for you. They'll have it, you know, let you know, I'm sure, when it's arrived. Otherwise Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, my site, everywhere.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on and thank you for sharing all of these, um, I think so, so needed, uh, like helpful, non, non condescending tools that and strategies that people can use and, and ideas to put out in the world that aren't just run a bubble bath and you'll feel fine. You know, that's, that's the generation that stuck their head in the oven. So let's just not follow suit there.

Jenna Hermans:

Ah, amen to that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Yeah, so on that note, thank you. And I will put up in the show notes all of the contact info as well so that you, anyone that wants to reach out can reach out. So thank you again for coming here.

Jenna Hermans:

Thank you so much for having me, Ashley. It was such a pleasure and an honor to be here.

Dr. Ashley Blackington:

Thank you.