Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:00.767)

All right, hello and welcome back to the and both podcast today I am here with Jessica Hill from the parent collective welcome welcome. So I am really excited to talk to you today about a couple of things. And for people to hear more about the work that you do with the parent collective so if you want to just start off introducing yourself and what you do and we'll go from there.

Jessica Hill (00:08.77)

Thank you. So I'm Jessica Hill. I am the founder of The Parent Collective, which provides expectant and new parents with education and resources. And the thing that makes our programming special is that it's designed to help build community amongst people that live in your local town. So if you, you know, our prenatal education series, which is a four week prenatal program, sorts our participants by their neighborhood and their due date. So everybody in your class would live in your town and be due within a month of you. And we really sort of prioritize helping couples connect so that you sort of have friends to see you through those early you know, weeks and months with a newborn and the intense learning curve that, you know, that means. So, and then we also offer new motherhood support programs for working moms who are on, you know, maternity leave and trying to envision what that transition back to work looks like and what supports they need to put in place and also to learn from each other. So again, with the community piece, then I'm a motherhood coach and a fair play facilitator. And so I support couples and mothers through that one-on-one service as well.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (02:00.523)

Wow, so you have like the whole spectrum, like before baby all the way up through and continuing on. I like that.

Jessica Hill (02:07.626)

Yeah, and it's evolved because I've sort of, you know, it started the parent collective started because I had both of my boys in the UK, where I had the benefit of a program called the National Childbirth Trust, which has been around in England for almost 80 years now. And it is it is a prenatal, I mean, they offer a lot of services, but their signature thing is that they have this prenatal education program that sorts of participants by their neighborhood and their due date. And because of that community that I, um, developed prenatally, you know, I, my maternity leave was this incredibly social and incredibly, um, supportive time for me. Um, and it could have been a disaster, right? I was living abroad. I was far away from family and friends. All of the friends that I had in the UK were work colleagues, right? That lived all over the place. And were not at that stage in their lives. And so I could have been a real shut-in. It could have been dark and it wasn't, it was wonderful. And some of my best friends to this day are from that experience. And my child that I went through that program with is now 15.

So then upon returning back to the States, when my boys were two and four, with no intention of starting a business, just asking friends what it was like having kids here in the US because I hadn't done it. I just kept hearing over and over again how isolating and lonely and sort of, I would hear words like trapped or moms would share that they felt secretly excited to go back to work and felt really guilty about that feeling, but they just felt sort of lost at home. And then I would hear that they didn't actually make any meaningful friendships until their kids started preschool.

And that's just a two-year dead zone, which at a time when we so need to relate and connect with people, otherwise you're in your head and you're on Facebook groups and you can spiral, right? So, yeah, so that's where the Parent Collective, that was the sort of what prompted me to start the Parent Collective.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (04:25.931)

Yeah, for sure.

Jessica Hill (04:36.574)

you know, as we went along and I, you know, was talking to these expectant moms, the other services sort of just organically grew out of that because I was seeing, you know, these holes and, you know, points that people were really struggling with. So, you know, response.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (04:58.343)

Yeah, I like that. So you, I think it's interesting. Yeah, because I remember when my oldest when I was pregnant with her, I met people at the like, childbirth classes and things like that. But that's really the only time and I think because that happened, you know, only a few a few things, depending on when you went. And you know, I think everyone's sort of stuck in their own head a little bit when they get there. Because it's like the realization that like, pregnancy is going to end in this manner. Oh, right. And I, yeah, so like I didn't really meet a whole lot of people from that class, but I do have friends that met in those classes and they were friends all the way through, but it's just not like, that's not the focus, right? The focus is like come in and we'll tell you like what it means to have an epidural and walk you through changing a diaper, all of that stuff.

Jessica Hill (05:30.844)

This baby has to come out.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (05:57.487)

But yeah, afterwards, I definitely, I mean, and then totally differently in this country too, like you get a six week checkup and that might be the first person that you've seen other than your pediatrician for six weeks after you've had a baby or 10 or 12 weeks, whatever it is. And it's just like the ability to fall off the cliff is so profound in this country. I think what you're doing is really great to bring some of that.

European like children are part of the world and having children is part of life and growing families and things like that. It's not like go off and do the baby thing and then come back when you're like ready to be a productive member of the workforce. Do you know? Yeah.

Jessica Hill (06:43.19)

Right, go to your cave. We'll see you when, well, exactly. And I think it's also here and what I try and infuse into, you know, the curriculum for the prenatal education, but also the new motherhood supports is that I think, you know, when women are pregnant in this country, they're, you know, it's all about, you know, them, right? The pregnant mother is...

you know, we, we take care of the pregnant mother, right? But then as soon as the baby is out in the world, it's all about the baby. And we sort of forget to check on the mom as, you know, you just pointed out with the six week checkup, right? It's, there's, you know, this, you live a hundred lives in that six weeks, right? It's such an intense, um, and vulnerable time, right? Where that you don't have a clue what you're doing and you know, your perspectives and your priorities and, you know, all of these things just kind of flip on themselves overnight. It's just a very unmooring time. And, you know, going back to the your the European model, I mean, I had people coming to my house every few days, you know, I had a midwife checking up on me and the baby, every other day until I was cleared by them, which was sort of a couple of weeks. And then I also had health visitor visits, which were checking on my emotional state and making sure that I was coping and that I had support and all of that. And I had those visits every, you know, week or so until they cleared me for, you know, so there's just, it's just a very different mindset, you know, if there's a healthy and happy mom, there's a healthy and happy baby, right? That's, they go hand in hand, you can't forget.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (08:45.213)

Yeah, it's just such a softer landing to a huge change in your life. And it just seems like that way of doing and what you're bringing into this area from or bringing to the US from that perspective is that idea of like not bubble wrapping, but like offering some sort of alternative to this very black and white, like pregnant mother.

Jessica Hill (09:14.631)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:14.787)

And that's it, right? Like there's no gray, there's no transition. There's no like, what do I do? Is this normal? What is happening? You know, all that space where like people resort to, you know, Facebook info group, which is like the last place that you should be when you're feeling like completely untethered to the world. And like all of a sudden you've got like, you know, Dr. Google there hanging out, telling you what you need to be doing to fix your problem.

Jessica Hill (09:32.288)

Absolutely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:45.615)

It's yeah, it is. You can get lost and turned around pretty quickly here. So just that just that alone, like having that ability to call someone or to have somebody show up at your house, right? Because I don't know how many people just wouldn't call and they would just sort of go on and on and on feeling that way or having whatever struggle they're having or struggles. But to have somebody come to your house and look at you face to face and say like- hello, I am a human and I am required to be here. So like, let's do this thing. Yeah.

Jessica Hill (10:16.434)

Right. When was the last time you showered? You know, who's here supporting you? When was the last hot meal you ate? You know, those kinds of questions that get at the underlying, you know, are you coping? Because you're right, there's a lot of guilt and shame wrapped up in admitting that you're having a hard time. Because again, going back to the sort of you know, we're fed these images of, you know, motherhood is the most natural thing in the world, breastfeeding is the, you know, easiest and most natural thing in the world. And it's, you know, it's the opposite, you know, there are those women that find it very easy, but the vast majority of us struggle in some way, right. And so I think we do moms a huge disservice giving that kind of messaging. Because then, the only logical response is, well, there's something wrong with me, right? Like what? I'm not, I'm not cut out for this.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (11:21.731)

Yeah, I mean, I feel like nobody checks all the boxes, right? Like between like pregnancy, labor and delivery, breastfeeding, sleeping, all of that stuff, right? Like these are four huge unknowns that come with new babies. And like some people might have an area where like it's simpler for them in that. But no one, I don't know anyone that has checked all the boxes. And that's the idea is like, if you don't check all the boxes, there is some deficiency that is clearly coming from you because you are in charge of like all of this. Right. And it's like

I don't know. I don't know what I don't know how to do this. Like becoming a new parent, becoming a mom is you're learning and you're meeting a new baby and you're getting to know them. Like I have multiple children and I can tell you for fact, they are all incredibly different people. And my postpartum experience with all of them was incredibly different. So it's just like that idea of like, oh, I'll just go and do this again. And like, you know, use the same stuff and yeah.

Jessica Hill (12:19.07)

Right. I'm an expert.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:21.491)

I know it all. Yeah, oh my gosh. And now you're, so your kids are teenagers now then, right?

Jessica Hill (12:27.41)

Yeah, so that's a whole new world in and of itself. And that's the thing about motherhood and parenthood in general, right, is just the second you feel like, okay, I got the hang of this, there's a new, you know, the new thing, new transition, yeah. So it's definitely the sort of, I'm in that sort of emotional problems phase of raising kids.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:31.034)

There's a new thing. There's a new milestone. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Hill (12:57.74)

and let's get started.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:58.955)

Yeah, it's less of the like, I'm trying to keep you alive, and more of the like, I'm trying to make sure that you're okay in ways that you can't fix with like snack, shower, nap.

Jessica Hill (13:02.132)

Right, and that you're going to be a, you know, a successfully launched human and whatever that you know, that you're sort of building skills and independence so that you can, you know, go off into the world because they're with you less and less, you know, the older they get, which is terrifying.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (13:25.743)

Mm-hmm. So when they, when as your kids started to get older, is that when you started to move into the fair play kind of era of this?

Jessica Hill (13:41.458)

So the fair play, so I was in Eve Rodsky's first group of facilitators that trained with her. You know, I had always been talking kind of in those terms, but didn't have a framework for it, right? It was just, it was, it had always been on my mind. And, you know, I remember when I had my first son.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (13:49.217)

Okay.

Jessica Hill (14:09.962)

My mom said to me, you know, when you have a baby, both partners in your marriage feel overworked and underappreciated, right? And I definitely, you know, felt that in my bones when my kids were little. You know, I was, you know, he talks a lot about invisible labor and, you know, I was carrying the vast majority of that. You know, and I used to jokingly, I don't know if I can swear on this podcast, but I used to call myself a doggy bitch because, you know, I would be so preoccupied. You know, if we were gonna go out for a day, you know, to do something fun, make memories, right? Like I would be thinking, you know, I'd be doing these mental gymnastics thinking, okay, if we leave now, you know, when's meal time and who needs a bottle and what time's nap time so that we don't, you know, screw this up and they're overtired and cranky or, you know, are we going to get home in time for, you know, you know, all of those, those. Yeah. So, you know, I would pack up the car and food and pack for every contingency.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (15:14.519)

All of it.

Jessica Hill (15:31.454)

And by the time we were setting out to go, I was over it, you know, it's like, and so, you know, I had these vivid memories of going to like Lego land in Windsor in the UK. And my husband would go off and make memories, you know, like with the kids, and I would just stay with them. And not because he was doing anything wrong. I was just so preoccupied with the schedule and all of these things that it kind of sucked any capacity for joy, you know, out of me. And he, who wasn't weighed down by any of that stuff, was having a blast, you know? And so, you know, I definitely felt and struggled with all of those concepts of fair play, but didn't have the framework to kind of think about how to solve it. And, you know, around the COVID time, I was seeing all of these moms who of course were now juggling working from home and homeschooling and childcare because there was no ability to bring any outside help and they were just drowning. And oftentimes they were managing all of those things, even though their partner was home working also, right? So that was when I learned that Eve had created this framework for communicating. And for me, it's the thing that I...

really focus on with Fair Play work with couples is helping them to have those conversations because they're really very emotionally loaded, heavy conversations. And oftentimes, you know, the mother will avoid having the conversations because they assume it will just turn into a fight, right? It will be interpreted as you, you aren't helping, you know, you're not supportive, you're letting me down, right? All of these things that then will lead to kind of conflict. And so, um, you know, it was, it was so, it was so helpful even for our relationship to have a, you know, have these kind of guardrails for having these conversations, um, to be able to productively sort of think about how we can sort of rebalance the invisible labor together as a team, as opposed to, you know, in a more unproductive, passive, aggressive dynamic, which was all too present.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:04.763)

I think yeah, like I think anything that starts these conversations, because that's ultimately where I think that's ultimately where everybody wants to be right? Like, you don't want to be at Lego land, watching this all go on and being like, yeah, but it's 1120. And I know at 1130, we need to do this, this and this. And so I'm gonna, you know, you're stuck in that in that mode. But then also, your husband doesn't want to.

go to Legoland and be the one who's out doing this. And at the end of the day, you get in the car and you're just like, did you have fun today? And you're like, ah! It's just, everyone's trying to avoid conflict, but nobody knows how to avoid conflict unless you open up these conversations.

Jessica Hill (18:48.831)

Exactly.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (19:05.103)

So I think, yeah, and I think too, like that is something that is so on the forefront in the early stages of parenting and figuring out what that looks like because that is true. Like I agree 100%. You know, both of you feel like you're going 100 miles an hour and you're all doing the right things. However, these, these trains, like the two trains that were running side by side are now kind of maybe veering off a little bit and it's trying to bring them back together.

Jessica Hill (19:17.503)

Right, well, because you're, because you're, I think we, we really discount how significant it is to go from being a couple, right, who are responsible for, you know, their individual and their collective, you know, health and happiness, right, to a family that now has this incredibly labor intensive baby look after and how that impacts how the couple, you know, how their dynamic and you know, who does what and what, you know, what the, that increased workload, you know, how that gets split. And in those early days, and this is one of the, I include fair play, a fair play kind of conversation starter handout in our prenatal education program, because, you know, in those early days, everybody's in survival mode.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (20:20.778)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Hill (20:24.29)

And oftentimes moms have more leave or take more leave. So they end up becoming the default for a lot of these systems, creating these systems. And without talking about it, even if they go back to work, that default stands, right? So without kind of resetting and, you know, having a conversation about how this needs to sort of evolve as our lives evolve.

Um, it doesn't. And so that's where the kind of resentment starts to, um, grow. And I think the one, the, the thing that I found most interesting about, um, the couple's work that I've done is that really it is, it, there doesn't have often have to be such a huge upheaval of, uh, to rebalance.

because it's really just about moving towards fairness, right? And there oftentimes for moms, it's a need of validation that this is work and that it's hard and that, you know, they're sort of carrying a lot of it on their own. And so sometimes by just small shifts in the way that they talk to each other and in the way that they view the work of the house, you know, really change in their relationship dynamic in real.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (21:58.363)

Yeah, I was gonna say, I think like acknowledgement and recognition are like these two big pillars, because it's that idea, right? Like where does resentment come from? It comes from doing without acknowledgement for what you've done. And that it's just like, I feel like I have heard this argument so many times from other moms, I may or may not have thrown this out myself, where it's like, I did the thing and the thing is done. Nobody acknowledged the thing. However, my partner does the thing, then tells me they did the thing so that I am to acknowledge that they did the thing.

Jessica Hill (22:43.55)

Are we playing that game?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (22:56.219)

And it's like, if you've got like the old, yeah, like if you've got the old, like, what is it, the printer paper that comes on the reel, it's like one might be using a Post-It for their list and the other one's using like the printer reel with the little plugs on the side, but I feel like that acknowledgement piece is something that's so important, especially for moms to bring up and especially for them to talk about. We don't want to ask for acknowledgement or recognition, but when it's not there, that's when it's like, if I were to just fall off the face of the earth, when would people notice?

Like, would you notice if there's a pile of laundry that's still sitting there? Or you ran out of clean underwear, like, would you notice? Or, you know, it's all that, like, behind the scenes stuff that goes on that is not talked about or things like that. And so I think, yeah, having that where you sort of, because her thing is, or the Fair Play method is about splitting the whole task, right? So it's taking that task and handing it over completely.

Jessica Hill (23:32.075)

Right. And I think that also, it has a huge impact because it allows, you know, it allows moms to know when something isn't their job and their mind can kind of disengage, right? I've had moms say to me, you know, well, you know, my husband usually does the dishes, but we've never really had a conversation about it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (24:11.492)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Hill (24:21.606)

So if he's upstairs putting the kids to bed and the dishes aren't done, then I'm thinking to myself, should I do the dishes? Because, you know, whereas, you know, I could sit down and relax for the first time that day, right, but there's a pull because I don't know if he intends to do the dishes and the dishes need to get done and do I want to start an argument about it?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (24:37.738)

Right.

Jessica Hill (24:46.794)

And so just the sort of piece that comes with having that explicit conversation about, okay, you're on dishes, dishes are yours, you soup to nuts. And I'm not going to think about dishes. It allows for your mind to kind of release it, right? And it gives a little bit of space because one of the other things that I think moms really struggle with is carving out space for themselves, you know, in amongst caregiving and work and all of the other responsibilities. You know, I so remember this one mom saying to me, I know that I should take time for myself on the weekends, but you know, I'll have plans to go to yoga class and then I'll look in the back seat and see that there's stuff that needs to go to UPS. And I'll think, oh I should just go to UPS, right? And so they convince, they talk themselves out of prioritizing themselves in favor of these kinds of caregiving responsibilities that they have. But the problem with caregiving is it's 24 seven, right? There's never going to be a point where you say, Oh, all of my to-do list is done. You know, let me sit back and relax.

It is constantly, once one meal is done cooking, you know, the kids are asking you what's for the next meal. Like it's, it's a, it is, it's boundaryless and it's, you know, unending. And so once we sort of realize that and realize that there will be no time unless we make and prioritize that time, you know, I think that can help make a change. And one of the first place that I usually start with couples who are working on Fair Play is, in that to say, you know, I often hear about jokes about, you know, golf widows, right? Like women who are frustrated that their husband goes and plays six hours of golf on the weekends. And that usually is coming from a place of, you know, that just feels unfair, right? Like, well, I don't have six hours to go do anything, right? Like, sure, I'll stay back with the kids.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:05.178)

Yeah.

Jessica Hill (27:13.022)

And so, we sort of perversely start to resent our partner for the thing that they love, right? Because it feels unfair. And so I'll start fair play conversations, not about chores or tasks around the house, but about that, right? So how can we carve out space for both of you where you are each other's accountability partner, you're each other's support to make sure that you each get some time each week, right? So if you're going golfing on Saturday, great, I'm happy for you. Have a great time because I know that on Sunday, I'm going to go have a great time. And so it sort of shifts from this sort of zero-sum game dynamic to one of teamwork, right? One of let's support each other in taking this space for ourselves.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:13.291)

Yeah, the collaborative style versus like that, that keeping score piece. Yeah, I think that's incredible. So when you start working with somebody that, so say someone reaches out and says, I'm having a baby in such and such time, like what does the process look like for them to become part of the prenatal program? And then is there, did they usually transition on to like the postpartum or how does the how does the timeline of the parent collective work?

Jessica Hill (28:47.118)

So we usually recommend that couples take our prenatal education classes, late second or early third trimester of their pregnancy. And right now we have classes in Westchester County and Fairfield County. So Westchester County, New York and Fairfield County, Connecticut. But I'm we're sort of in a

expansion phase. So yeah, I know. Watch this space. We'll see, we'll see if a chapter is coming, you know, to your local community. And then we also have Zoom classes. And so with the prenatal education, there's also the option to add on a fair play crash course, you know, to work, you know, to work on these conversations in advance, because I think it is so powerful to have those conversations before you're in the weeds, before you're sort of feeling, but when it's abstract, right? When you can dream as opposed to feeling that feeling like my mom talked about it, feeling overworked and under-appreciated. So that's an option as a sort of add-on to the prenatal series. And then, yeah, we have oftentimes moms will join our new moms or working moms groups which meet on zoom. Um, and then the, the motherhood and, um, fair play, you know, coaching can happen at any point, you know, I think it often fair play, especially often sort of people hit a wall about when their kids are in preschool, you know, and there's, they're, they're feeling so frustrated and burnt out that they're, you know, they come to me to kind of help facilitate conversations with their partner about making a change. And I think, you know, unlike couples counseling, which, you know, can sometimes feel very emotionally fraught and, you know, dredge up, you know, feelings for you know, so there's a feeling of dread to going to couples counseling, right? Cause it's going to be heavy. There's something fair play coaching is very much about, let's solve this problem, right? Let's let's here's a system, um, and a structure for solving this problem.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (31:21.432)

Yeah.

Jessica Hill (31:37.934)

And so I think, interestingly, men find it really helpful because it's like, I, you know, I, and I also, I, I feel like there's work that moms have to do in this, you know, it's not just that men have stepped back, it's that women, you know, are often understandably holding on really tight to the systems that they've created and there's no space for their partner to have any ownership of jobs and so they kind of retreat and say, all right, just tell me how to help and I'll help because, you know, if I do something.

you know, my own way, I'm going to get yelled at. So, so, so it's about kind of, you know, moms sometimes relinquishing a little bit of, of control and, and dad stepping into that control. So, but that can happen anytime I've met with couples where their kids were heading off to college and you know, the, their relationship was evolving again and just, you know, kind of dealing with frustrations that she's had for years and wanted to kind of broach those conversations in a facilitated way.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (32:49.295)

I like that. That's good. Yeah, I think what I was gonna say was about the, just tell me what to do. I feel like that conversation, it's like the easy button that staples, right? As soon as that line comes out, it's like we have entered a non-productive space because at that point I feel like everyone's mad. It's like the person who's saying, tell me what to do and the person that's being said to is just like zero productive things are gonna happen beyond the period in that sentence. And so having the, it's like the modeling or the visualization or all of those kinds of things where like, so when we move into this period, these are some of the things that we're gonna come up against. How do you feel like that? It's like pre-marital counseling, but it's like pre-child relationship strategy session or something like that. That's what it feels. It feels very much like, let's add more things to our toolbox before we get in there.

Jessica Hill (33:54.922)

Right? Right, it's like scaffolding so that when you come up against those situations, you both recognize it for what it is, right? And so you're able to kind of name it and be more productive in the way you respond to it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (34:13.883)

Yeah, it's nice to, I feel like with so many years of this conversation, of these types of conversations coming out and the pandemic, that we're now, it feels like we're now moving to a space where there's more proactivity when it comes to this, because there's so much talk about it, because there's so much out there about invisible load, mental load, fair play, sharing, you know, having both parents be working together versus like mom's in charge and everyone's like a, you know, mom's responsibility and things like that. So I think that I just feel so hopeful for people that are moving into that space now where you're not, you know, it's just that new, like new education and new ways of thinking about things and speaking about things. And that's how we're gonna have change going forward. Like for you having kids that are older and growing up seeing these types of conversations, like how, and Ann talking about like having a fully launched person that goes out into the world. Like how do you notice a difference in your kids and what they take on and things like that, especially because you have boys, and how that may look differently than probably previous generations.

Jessica Hill (35:40.246)

Well, it is so interesting. I was having, we had friends over to watch the Super Bowl last night. And we were talking about some of these issues, not talking about them as fair play issues, but the difference between boys and girls and how kids are socialized, right? And my boys, you know, I think have a lot of awareness, intellectually about, you know, the need for partners to share in the load, you know, and how to be, you know, a good member of the household, right? We're always banging on about chores, but, do they do chores without being asked to? No, not really, right? There's, and it's this, we're constantly beating this drum. Like if you see that the garbage is full, empty the garbage, right? But they don't.

own, you know, in their heads, they don't own the things, you know, that they should. And we were talking at dinner last night about how a friend of mine who has a daughter had a sleepover and how they baked and she thought, oh gosh, that's going to be the kitchen is going to be a bombsite, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:43.643)

I'm out.

Jessica Hill (37:07.27)

They're all in there, like six of them baking. And she went into the kitchen and the girls had completely cleaned, just completely scoured the kitchen it was you know perfectly pristine and you know we were talking about it i mean it run it really it it's hardwired right in us and it's it takes a lot to um resist some of these gender roles that um you know, so I think even today where there's a lot of conversation and I think in our prenatal classes we see a lot of couples that really intend, you know, to be, you know, more equitable and, you know, work together to, with the caregiving and the housework and all that stuff, but because the system is set up with this imbalance in place, right? With maternity leaves being the sort of more socially acceptable leaves, exactly. That we kind of, that couples sort of wake up one day and find themselves in a very sort of traditional looking household. And they, you know, it's not what they had intended, either of them, you know? But it's this structure sort of helps create it. And one of the things I think that is so important in those early days is that both parents really need to become experts on their baby, right? Like they need to know how to do all of the things associated with caring for their baby. And, you know, dads have less practice oftentimes because they have less space to do it. Whether that's, you know, knowing what, how much milk their baby is drinking at any particular phase, right? Or, you know, weaning and what solids are we introducing? Right? Like there are so many things that kind of happen, you know, they sort of evolve pretty quickly. And so I think it's so important for both parents to really prioritize understanding and knowing all of the caregiving responsibilities of their child. So I think that's a sort of jumping off point for some of this equity conversation around parenting.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (39:44.184)

Yeah, I had this, I remember this distinct conversation when my oldest was a baby and I went back to work. So I was full time working in the hospital. And then after she was born, I went back on the weekends because we did not have like a formal childcare set up. So my husband worked during the week and then I worked on the weekend. So we did the two ships thing for a while, but it was, I did not realize how incredible it was for him because when I was in the hospital, I was really not reachable. I would leave at 7.30 in the morning and I would come home at 4.30 or something like that in the afternoon and I would just be gone. I remember I went back to work and there was a nurse who had a baby maybe two weeks before me and so she was coming back and and I remember, you know, you go back and you're like, I am away from my child. Like there's all that happens, right? It's it's really weird and sad and horrible and all of that. And I remember standing there talking to her about, you know, she was like, it took me forever to get out of the house this morning because I had to like prep all of the bottles and I had to pick out his clothes for the day and yada yada. And she was like, you know what I mean? And I was like, no, I left my house like I got up that morning and pumped because I pumped forever for her. And I pumped and I put my scrubs on and I went into, I went into work and I remember like throughout the day she was calling her husband and all that and she was like, how's it going? I was like, I'll find out at the end of the day. Like he's a full grown human who can take care of himself. And like it wasn't perfect, right? But it's not perfect for moms.

Jessica Hill (41:42.339)

Of course not.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (41:43.471)

Like we're all trying to learn. And like just from that experience of like having those couple of days where, you know, he went to birthday parties and he went to the grocery store and he did all of those things. I mean, of course, you know, there's like a standing ovation when your husband brings a child into the grocery store by themselves. It just like, talk about acknowledgement running hot. And I, but I just like, I remember that being like, no, like he's a person who is a grownup and this is also his child and so he's gonna be fine. And like he was very confident because he had to be and because he had, you know, like put on this upside down or done this or, you know, whatever. It's all the stuff that we learn.

Jessica Hill (42:30.455)

Right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:38.719)

And then going forward, it's like, you know, subsequent children, like I'm gonna leave now and I'm gonna do this. And it wasn't like, you know, you got to call for help and you've got to do all of this because you're going to figure it out because I figure it out and we're all just going to figure it out.

Jessica Hill (42:45.718)

Well, and now you use the word confidence. And that was what I was thinking through that whole story is that it's such a, such a confidence boost for him to, you know, he, he had to kind of go through some of that growth, you know, discomfort of like, I don't know what I'm doing, right? Again, what, what everybody has to go through. Um, but without the space to get uncomfortable and to just figure it out and be able to come out the other side and say, okay, that was a little messy, but we're alive. Everybody's here. You know, without those experiences, there is that sort of, you know, that's where I feel like some of that learned helplessness can kind of, you know, rear its head. And Eve Rodsky in her book talks about how she was out with some friends and they were you know, having this sort of empowered girls day and I think they'd gone to a march or something and they were going for lunch and right as everybody was getting ready to go for lunch, their phones started pinging like crazy and there were things like, you know, do the kids need lunch, you know, or, you know, you know, Jimmy can't find his baseball glove or, you know, these things which, you know, are obvious, you know, answers, you know, yes, they need lunch. Um, uh, or, you know, what am I going to do about a baseball glove? Like find it. I, you know, I don't want to tell you, right? So there is that sort of someone will save me, right. Mentality, um, unless they're kind of left, you know, to, to build that confidence that they can do it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:14.105)

Right.

Jessica Hill (44:35.842)

So I think that's an amazing story about you and your husband. I just left. It's great.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:42.849)

Also, it had been five days in a row and I was like, I'm going to go talk to a person who doesn't spit milk on themselves. But I think it's weird to think this idea of like, I mean, we're talking about heterosexual relationships too, but women are saving, acting as the last line of defense very often in this dynamic.

Jessica Hill (44:49.581)

Right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (45:06.883)

However, you have the other dynamic of like, we're supposed to be saved. And it's like, how, where do these lines cross? And like, why don't we all just try and get on the same level instead of someone's gotta have the superhero cape on. And then maybe that's that common ground that we all need to be in, for sure.

Jessica Hill (45:22.818)

Absolutely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (45:34.959)

Yeah, it's, I mean, I feel like it's getting better, but you know, the path is always much longer than I think any of us imagine when we start out on it. So outside of this, and especially having older kids, because it's funny, like a lot of the people that I've had on here so far have very young kids or younger kids, how does the carving out of time look for you and what does that involve? Because you're doing a lot.

Jessica Hill (45:49.151)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Hill (45:57.278)

Well, that's, yeah, well, it's funny that you, so when I was starting the training and we do a lot of, you know, internal work, right? Thinking about our own sort of journeys and we were talking about, you know, you know, there's that joke of, you know, people, moms live in fear of somebody asking them, you know, what do you do for fun? Or, you know, what are you interested in? It's like, I'm not interested in anything. And through that training, I was really forced to reflect on the fact that my business had become my outlet, right? I didn't have space to explore who I was outside of, you know, home and work really, because I'm also still that default parent, right? Like I'm working from home, but I'm working while my kids are at school and then racing off to, you know, drive them, you know, from activity to activity. And so, great. And so, there is not much room in there. And I was sort of really confronted by the fact that I wasn't prioritizing myself outside of these roles that I play. And, you know, I started thinking about what I used to like to do. And I challenged myself, I signed up for a pottery class, because of, because in thinking about it, I remembered that, you know, I, in my 20s, I used to do pottery classes all the time with my friends and loved it. And it was just kind of a very sort of peaceful activity for me. And so last year I started going to a pottery class every week. It was me and a bunch of retired women listening to Joni Mitchell.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (48:04.399)

That's awesome. That sounds incredible.

Jessica Hill (48:22.978)

I mean it was amazing. It really was. And it sort of highlighted, you know, here I am trying to preach this sort of message but I wasn't taking my own advice. And so it has prompted me to prioritize myself more, right? I'm prioritizing my health more, using, doing exercise classes, which I lovingly call my torture sessions. And I've gotten much more involved in my community volunteering, which takes time away from all of these things, but it's important for me not only to feel engaged and excited by my day and not feel like I'm sort of on a hamster wheel, which I think is a feeling a lot of, especially young moms have of just- I know exactly what this day is gonna look like before I get out of bed, right? Like there's nothing exciting or engaging, or it's just drudgery, right? Like, I mean, obviously you love your kids and there are laughs in there, but it's very predictable. And I also think it's so important for my boys to see me living a full life, right? Living a multifaceted life that isn't entirely centered around them, right? Like that they are an important, you know, they'll always be, you know, my first priority, but that I deserve to be prioritized as well, right? And them seeing me as a martyr figure, you know, doesn't serve them, you know, in having healthy relationships moving forward or many of that. So that was for me in going through that experience was really eye-opening and sort of pivotal moment for me, just personally.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (50:29.735)

Yeah, I think it's funny, or not funny, but I think it's interesting that when you sign up for the pottery class and you're the only person in there who doesn't have kids that are probably college age, it's like, yeah. So like, but like how many of those people would have loved to have gone to a pottery class? Maybe they did. I don't know. I don't know these grandmothers, but they sounded amazing.

Jessica Hill (50:39.486)

Oh, like they were all grandmothers. They were all grandmothers.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:00.103)

But how many, how many of those seats could be occupied by people who are younger and still at home or needing all of that assistance or what you know all of that space but they're just they're not and how can there how can there be more people like you in that class not less people like them but maybe more pottery wheels

Jessica Hill (51:18.242)

But well, yeah, and to build on what you're saying, you know, the volunteering that I do is around local government. And I'm always trying to find ways of getting more voices of young families in that space. And because young families are overwhelmed and exhausted and, you know, stretched so thin, you know, they are largely absent from those conversations. But what that means is that their priorities, their needs, the things that they recognize as lacking aren't going to be heard in the same way as a senior citizen who has a lot of time on their hands.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:56.248)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Hill (52:15.329)

And I think that also translates in workplaces with when we talk about women and working mothers, you know, not being in the room to kind of give their perspective of the types of services or supports that they need to be able to successfully manage this, you know intense transition into and years after having a baby, right? Like those years of preschool are, it's crazy from a scheduling perspective and health perspective, right? Like those are crazy intense times. And so, you know, what supports would you as a working mom need to be able to successfully weather that phase of life and stick with your job, right? And not say, this is too hard. I can't, I can't manage.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:03.844)

Yeah. I saw a thing, it was an article, they were talking about the women, it was on a Forbes list and it was talking about women that had made a ton of money, like one of those top 100 lists or whatever. They said every woman on the list was over 50 years old. And I just think that is such a great example of like the work that you're doing is trying to set people up in that beginning piece and that transition piece and all of that, but also seeing the long game, because this transition when you become a parent and when you have really young kids and as your kids grow is a huge thing, but also it's that other side of the coin when it comes to career and leave and things like that is that trying to set your, trying to do all of the things at the same time with the idea that you have to do everything when it comes to childcare and juggling everything and you have to do the career and you have to do all that at the same time with the same intensity is just not, it's not possible because you only have so much bandwidth, you only have so much time, you only have so much, I don't know, daylight hours, whatever it is you know, the examples are out there that like, when you have a child or when you have children, that it's not that's not a left hand turn. And that's where your road ends, like now you are mom, now you do this, now you've now you fall into the like, leader of all of the things and wanting to, you know, not wanting to have anything outside of that. Whereas you can see later on as people like as their kids grow, you know, you have women that are in this pottery class that have grandchildren probably or older children. And then you see women who are out there, you know, doing big things with in, you know, all of these big companies like finance and real estate and all of that, all of the things that get you put on these lists and get you put on the internet and all that stuff, but that like, the transition is so important in its infancy, literally and figuratively, that you set people up so that you have people, you have couples that are able to have these open conversations, that you have moms who feel supported and nurtured and cared for versus like some sort of modified vessel, human breeder thing.

Jessica Hill (55:53.35)

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (55:58.319)

It's a very fine line on thoughts and opinions. But your the work that you're doing and the work that the parent collective is doing is Having these conversations and creating spaces for these conversations to be heard so that you are helping the trajectory be one that is insightful and that is You know holistic and that is looking at not just the child that grows out from this Experience but also the mom that grows out from this experience because you really grow as a mom You're not just like, you know flick the light switch you grow into that role and what you become. So I think what you're doing is awesome. I think it's amazing for moms because it is a huge transition and it's forever.

Jessica Hill (56:29.39)

Absolutely. It's yeah. And it's constant to your point about how it's not flicking a light switch. It's, it's, you know, there's it's lifelong learning, right? It's lifelong sort of evolution of becoming. Um, and, you know, I feel with older kids that, you know, I've, I know that feeling of when you have little babies or toddlers of just feeling so insecure and am I doing this wrong? And you know, who am I? I have no idea what I'm doing. You know, how did they let me leave the hospital with this, you know, baby?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (57:10.443)

Oh yeah, every time.

Jessica Hill (57:30.094)

Great. And now, you know, I feel more confident. Like that trust your gut in parenting voice is stronger, you know, but it comes with time, right? It's not something that is a light switch, to your point, right? You have to build that confidence and build that sort of strength of purpose. Like I know what's right for my family and I know what's right for my child, over lots of trips and diversions and whatever. So yeah, but thank you- that was lovely, what you said.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (58:01.301)

Well, and I think that if people are in that area, in the Westchester and Fairfax area, I think that they would love to be able to get ahold of you. And if you are, it sounds like doing the expansion thing, because there's babies everywhere and there are moms everywhere and there are families everywhere. So I would love for you to tell everyone where they can find you, how they can connect with you, and I will put all that info in the show notes as well.

Jessica Hill (58:32.662)

Sure, sure. So our website is just theparentcollective.com and we are on social media on Instagram and Facebook at The Parent Collective TPC, which is just the initials of The Parent Collective. And if anybody is listening and interested in starting a local chapter of The Parent Collective, they can email me to learn more about it and they can email me just at jessica@theparentcollective.com. We are you know looking I think it's a great opportunity for a mom who's looking to kind of dip their toe in working again but maybe has young kids and needs that to be on their own terms and you know in their own time and so this is sort of an entirely flexible opportunity to kind of create community in your neck of the woods. So, yeah, those are, those are my contacts.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (59:35.859)

That's awesome. Well, I do hope that your email inbox is full because I think that notion of supporting such a tender time in life is amazing. So thank you so much for coming on today and sharing. And it was, yeah, oh my gosh, I love talking about all those roles, equity and things like that. So thank you for all the work that you do.

Jessica Hill (01:00:01.61)

Yes, me too. Thank you, thanks for having me.