Full Episode Transcript

Dr. Ashley Blackington (00:00.912)

Hello and welcome back to the and both podcast. I am here today with Jess from Handlers and Humans and this is a really cool organization, business, movement, all of the things. And full disclosure, Jess and I have had a conversation before, but due to the recording issues, I 100% believe on my end, we were not able to air that episode, which breaks my heart in a million pieces because it was such a good conversation in so many ways which we will get into some of them again. But first of all, for all the people that were not listening to the recording where I was very upset that it did not work, aka everybody, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the work that you do with Handlers and Humans?

Jess (00:52.63)

Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me back. I'm very glad that we're gonna repeat this conversation. I feel like so much more will probably come up, so this is great. So I'm Jess Adam. I'm a licensed professional counselor in the state of Pennsylvania, and I have a niche coaching business working with anyone who loves, lives with, trains a tough dog, challenging dogs, complex dogs. So I myself also have a complex dog and that is what inspired me to want to bring mental health to dog people as a coach. So that is what Handles and Humans is all about.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (01:28.488)

That's awesome. And you are also a twin mom.

Jess (01:31.814)

I am. I am absolutely a twin mom. Sometimes I feel like I have more than two, but yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (01:36.354)

Cute. Yeah, it's exponential, right? Children are exponential. It's not addition, it's not multiplication, it's exponents straight up. And they are, how old are they? Yeah, you're in it. It's like, like destruction all around the lot.

Jess (01:45.319)

is so true, so true. 16 months. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha.

Jess (01:56.262)

Right, this is the intense time I'm told.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (02:01.348)

Yeah, it's a busy and mobile. I think when we were talking before, I was telling you that one of my husband's, somebody that he works with, he was part of a twin consortium. And so when the twins turned one, it was a group and they would come around and they would do a first birthday party for the twin parents. I really, it was like, congratulations, you have survived a year, you have kept two people alive.

Jess (02:13.355)

Oh yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (02:29.8)

I just couldn't think of a much more deserving population than twin parents, especially first children twin parents.

Jess (02:33.929)

Right, although I have heard and now believe very much that it's better to have them first because you don't know better. Right? You don't know what it's like to have a singleton first and how different that is. And so being a twin parent and what comes along with that is like all you know.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (02:46.512)

That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that would be like, if you just start high on the overwhelmed chart, that like, yeah.

Jess (03:01.102)

Right, right, anything else. It was like, all right, I got this. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (03:06.696)

Oh, there's one? Cool. Yeah, that, oh my gosh, that's so funny. So handlers and humans, I absolutely love this option opportunity business idea because it is such a, because I am a dog person as well. There is a cat that has worked her way into my life via my 11 year old. However, I am a dog person through and through. And I have had a couple of dogs in my life and some complicated, some very much not so complicated. And so I would love to hear like, so your dog Dio is how old is Dio now?

Jess (03:43.404)

Mm-hmm. He just turned 10 in January. I actually just got a fun thing. I just got a tattoo of the outline of his ears in honor of his 10th birthday. I have wanted it his whole life. And so I finally was like, I think we're turning 10, it's time to do this. He has a crooked ear. So like one year is up, one year is down with him. So it's just the best little silhouette. Yeah. Thank you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (03:59.806)

Oh my gosh! That is, I love that. So, Dio's been around for a long time, and that started, and then, so tell everyone, please, about how this all came to be. How did you connect the dots between what you do professionally with the dog and how that's grown from there?

Jess (04:18.538)

Sure, so yes, Dio has been around for a long time. So I got him when he was six months old. And so we've been through it. We've been together for longer than I've had these kids, longer than I've been with my husband actually, right? So Dio is my guy. And I always say like years one through four with him were really, really rough for me emotionally. First of all, I didn't know anything about a dog. I'm the first to admit like I got him on a whim which is very unlike me. I typically prepare and over prepare for absolutely everything I do. And then all of a sudden here's this dog who is young and I didn't know what to do with a typical dog, let alone a dog with reactivity and resource guarding issues and sort of the things that he kind of came with that I didn't know what I was dealing with.

So it really, really impacted me emotionally. I felt very isolated. I felt like no one else had dogs with challenges like this. I thought it was my fault. I mean, you name it. I was really going through it emotionally with him. And I had some very specific goals in mind. I'm a therapist. I wanted him to be a therapy dog. And so I had this very rigid idea of what I wanted for us and for our life together and we did accomplish passing therapy dog evaluations, we did accomplish passing the canine good citizen, but he's still a reactive dog. Like even though we got through those sort of behavioral evaluations, eventually it took years and years of work and thousands of dollars and all of it, right? But he is just not suited to be a therapy dog, period. It's not for him, so I did try it with him, and for various reasons, he clearly showed me he was stressed and we didn't do it. So I had these expectations of what our life would look like. I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, it was like a perfect storm. And I really hit a wall at one point with him, and was like, I don't know if I can keep this dog, right? It was really getting to me, and creating a lot more anxiety on top of the anxiety I already just have as a person.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (06:23.205)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (06:51.774)

And so I realized I was doing everything I possibly could for him, right? I was going to the training classes and the individual sessions and socialization and all this stuff. And there was nothing more that I could do for him. And so I had to turn to myself to work through it. If I was going to stick with him, if I was going to commit to keeping this dog and wanting to live life well with him and be happy together and be connected and bonded, I had to work on my stuff.

So, you know, just because you're a therapist doesn't mean you do things that you know that you tell all your clients that we're calling, right? So, no, yeah, I mean, that's, right? Like pulling the veil back on what it really is like to be a therapist for everybody, just because I would probably be able to support someone through that doesn't mean I was doing any of the helpful things for myself.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (07:21.802)

Amen!

Jess (07:51.078)

I wasn't looking at my mindset. I wasn't looking at the behavior that I was, you know, I just was not balancing anything for myself. I was all in on Dio, his behavior, his needs, all of that. So that wasn't great, obviously, and once I made a shift, it really changed things for both of us, I think, and it changed my feelings towards him. It changed my experience in living with him, and it just helped me connect with him so much more, and I'm so grateful now, 10 years later, for

you know, the challenges that we had, because I mean, it prepared me for parenthood, I'll tell you that, and it just, you know, it was just so many different things that I see now. And so when I was working with so many trainers and got close to them, obviously, because I was spending tons of time with them, you know, they started to say to me, I wish I could send my clients to you for therapy because they were all struggling emotionally with their dogs. And I just said, yeah, maybe you can. And so, handlers and humans was born, although secretly, like I was too afraid to put it out into the world for the longest time. So I finally, finally did and I'm really glad I did.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (08:59.376)

think that's awesome because you know, any, everything that you have said so far, and things and what I've read and all of this stuff of your, your like, value system and how you structure things and all of that is really like there could be no straighter line between this and parenthood.

Jess (09:20.404)

It's real.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:29.292)

In terms of like, you know, you, you don't you don't pick the baby that you have. You you know, there are you know, I know people that have babies that are, you know, they sleep right away, they don't, they're just, they're just quiet. And then people that are, that have babies that cry for hours and hours for months on end and things like that. And it's that idea that, that realization that you have no control over who comes home with you from the hospital, one or two kids, whatever.

Jess (09:56.942)

Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (09:58.16)

but that your ability to be different in the situation, you as an individual is really impactful on how the situation unfolds. And I could not agree more as a parent that a lot of times it's like, I'm gonna fix all the things around me. But then, and then you're like, well, I fixed all the things, checked all the boxes, nobody's left.

Jess (10:09.656)

Yes.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (10:21.984)

And then you walk by the mirror and you're like, oh yeah, that's right, could be me. Probably me, maybe me. So let's work on me. Yeah, that big boulder in the middle of my life I have not talked about. But yeah, so you have, I love it. I just love the idea of like, when you talk about these things like.

Jess (10:27.024)

Mm-hmm. Whoops. The only thing left.

Jess (10:30.338)

Whoops, right. One stone I've left unturned purposely.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (10:52.392)

Having that perspective of everything external to me is impacting my experience of this and the realization that like the internal is impacting the external. And if I start working on the internal, then I've changed and it worked for you. Like this is the thing that made all the difference. And yeah.

Jess (11:12.578)

It really did. I mean, it's not that he's laying his head on my lap right now, so if you hear him walking around, hi buddy. I don't want to say that it changed his behavior though, right? So that's the piece that I want to emphasize and I try to talk to my clients about this a lot. It's not that Dio changed, it's that I changed first.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (11:19.457)

Yeah.

Jess (11:38.73)

And he is still... He still has reactions. He still has the anxieties that he has. He is still who he is, right? We've come a really long way. I'm super proud of him. His behaviors are nothing like they used to be. So it's not like we haven't made progress. We certainly have made a ton of progress that I'm really proud of him for. But at the end of the day, he still is who he is. And it's me who shifted to, you know, find joy with him regardless.

Right? And find connection with him regardless, and really embrace the life that we do have together. Even if there are things about it that I wish were different, right? I can't a hundred percent change all of it. We've made a big impact and that's awesome, but at the end of the day, like, he is who he is. And I am who I am. So, you know, like, right? We'll figure it out together.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (12:08.069)

Yeah, and the idea too that like, you know, you had this idea of how it was going to look from the beginning and then he went through and he did pass all the classes, right? So like on the on the outside, it's like good job, Dio, you checked all the boxes, but then still saying, yes, you checked all the boxes and we have moved down the line in the way that I had thought about before. However, I now realize that you are not this dog. And to you know, carry that over, like you are not this kid that

Jess (13:01.224)

Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (13:02.02)

wants to do these things is comfortable in this space. And I think comfort is such a necessary thing for people and for parents to explore is because just because kids are going to go and do something or just because your dog has passed all of these things and he is now qualified or checked off or certified to go and do these things, it doesn't mean that that's the right choice for him.

Jess (13:26.222)

Exactly. And I didn't know that at first. There's so much that I wish I could apologize to him for, because I didn't know. And I did start taking him to work with me. And Dio is anxious around like bouncy wobbly kids, which is, you know, now I have twin toddlers, so I'm dealing with that, you know, for trying to manage his life in that way. And I worked at an agency that we saw a lot of young kids. He was fine with the adults, he was fine with the teenagers, but there was a lot of young, young kids there. And I didn't know how stressed he was because I didn't know about certain stress signals that he was showing me. I actually took him to the vet at one point because I was like, hey, this is happening, and I'm not sure why or where it's coming from.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (13:43.195)

Uh huh.

Jess (14:08.396)

The Vet pointed out that it could be stress and from that point on I never took him again and yeah I had to grieve that a little bit and I think as parents like similar you know we have similar experiences too I mean my kids are really young obviously but still there are things that you can't help but envision

It's just natural. I don't want any of us to judge ourselves for having these ideas of what it will be like to parent these children or to raise this dog or you know, and it It's always thwarted and that's fine, too Right, but it just it's a natural thing that we do when we kind of imagine our lives Being so intertwined with a new being right? But it's that willingness to be open to pivoting when it becomes clear that that's not the direction and it's typically not the direction I think, that your child or your dog wants to go and being okay with grieving that and knowing it's okay to have wanted something and for it to not have worked out and find the beauty in what is.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (15:12.932)

Yeah, I think we talked about this before about your experience as a twin mom versus a singleton mom and like the idea of like, you know, you find out that you're pregnant and you're going to have a baby and then you go in and you and they say, Hey, there's two. And you're like, wait a minute. Like I exactly it's exactly the same thing, right? Like, I had this whole plan that I was going to go into the hospital and I was going to have this one baby and it's like now now you got a system that you need to have in place.

Jess (15:31.46)

Whoa. Yep.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (15:41.792)

And so how did that experience go for you?

Jess (15:50.526)

Yeah, actually, this is another thing I am grateful for Dio for because I sort of learned that lesson in needing to adjust and try to find the beauty and what does exist and what is. Yeah, when we found out it was twins, which is funny. I have it marked on my calendar, the day that we had that ultrasound. So it's in three days from now, two years ago. Two in there.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (16:13.06)

Oh my gosh.

Jess (16:19.874)

And I, first of all, I just laughed so hard that she had to stop doing the ultrasound to let me, she couldn't get the heart rates because I was cracking up, I was just laughing and my husband was just laughing. Like we were just like, are you okay, here we go, right? But yes, this was the first babies that I was going to have and I had a vision for what that would look like, right? I would be able to breastfeed and I would do, right? Like so many things that got a wrench thrown into them when there was two of them to manage. And while I did quote unquote accomplish some of the things that I envisioned in the newborn stage, it was not the newborn stage that I always dreamed of having. It just wasn't. And it could it couldn't be because there were two of them. And you know, while we weren't outnumbered, there still only was one of me. And so it just it couldn't look the same as a lot of my, you know, visions and my friends with singletons, right? I envisioned a lot more, a lot less structure, right? Twins really needed, I needed, for us to survive that time, I needed structure and schedule, and we weren't able to kind of do as much of the on-demand kind of stuff that newborns, you know, you typically do with them. And it worked out fine, and we still got our snuggles and bonding and all of these beautiful moments that I'm really grateful that we had. it wasn't what I thought it would be. And there was a lot I had to let go of because there were two of them that just wasn't possible for me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (17:51.889)

Mm-hmm. And I think that's really important to say out loud because I think that sometimes it's like, it's that idea of gratefulness that's sort of shoved at everybody nowadays. It's like, you know, the, you know, be grateful for what you have and grateful, grateful. And it's like, you can be grateful and also grieving at the same time.

Jess (18:15.446)

Yep. Yes, I think that we're just not great, right? Humans just aren't great at holding two seemingly opposing, you know, things or feelings together at the same time, but it really is true. I was sad that I didn't have some of the opportunities to do some of the things or experience some of the things that I probably could have with a singleton and grateful that I had two healthy babies and support and all, you know, the great experiences that we did have in that time even though it was really hard.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (18:45.26)

Yeah, really hard. I mean, I don't have twins, but just on the on the outset, like the 30,000 foot view, that is, that is, that's big. That's big thing. So how did, how did it all work out with, so you have this experience with Dio and you guys get to a great place and things are kind of status quo, and then there are babies and, like, I feel like, I feel like you and Dio needed to like, have like a very serious conversation on the couch.

Jess (18:52.374)

Right. Yeah, reset. Yeah, we have to like recalibrate a little bit. Well, it was hard, right? I dealt with a lot of guilt. I still do sometimes about what my life with him looked like before them and what his life looks like now because of them, right? I can't do what I used to do with him. You know, the amount of time that I used to spend just he and I isn't possible. But I know that I can give him other things in other ways and I make every effort to do that. But it wasn't easy to, and it's still not easy to kind of let go of that guilt and recognize that I'm doing the best that I can. There's again, there's only one of me and you know, Dio needs me too, but Initially it was extra tough because I had a c-section and I with him Having a reactive, you know kind of personality he could pull me pretty hard if he were to have a rough reaction again.

We're pretty good about that stuff, but you never know it's kind of unpredictable like it could happen So I couldn't walk him for a long time because I didn't have the kind of the core strength to Brace myself if he were to do that so we were finding other ways to play and bond and connect because I couldn't take him on walks. I didn't feel stable enough to take him on walks for probably 10, 10 ish weeks. I didn't walk him afterwards. My husband would, but I would play with him and do other things. So I kind of embraced it looking different and tried not to judge it against a time in my life that was over, which was a non-kid time, right?

Dr. Ashley Blackington (20:50.522)

Right.

Jess (20:51.638)

It's not helpful for me to dwell on what I used to be able to do. It's helpful for me to turn that energy to what can I do? And how can I bring in the connection and joy that we always had in a different way? So I'm grateful to Dio for his patience as always, but especially in that process. And it's funny now that the twins are mobile. Of course, like there's baby gates everywhere, right? But the baby gate set up is to contain them and allow Dio freedom. So I always joke that like Dio earned freedom in the house. Dio is not the one behind gates, it's them that are behind gates because they have not earned the freedom in the house. So he's got free roam to be wherever he really wants to be and they're secluded to certain areas.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (21:33.316)

Right? Ha ha ha.

Jess (21:47.234)

So same with the yard actually, it's pretty funny. I put one of those like plastic playpen fence things out so that Dio had free room with the yard that the kids had to be in one spot. So yeah, Dio still has his status as having earned the freedom and you know, ability to be in the, like I don't bring the kids in the bed because Dio is in the bed. So, you know, we never did the co-sleeping thing because I was like, the dog's in here. We can't, I'm not kicking him out. He's been here for 10 years.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (21:53.135)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. I had, yeah, I had, I had two black labs and one of them slept in our bed. And I, and I remember like, when my oldest was born, it was that same conversation about like, I had friends that were like, well, our baby just sleeps like he co sleeps, or she co sleeps, or whatever. And I was like, I already co sleep with my dog. And they were like, well, you're, you're like, the dog has to like be out of the bed. And I was like, no, like, I have, I have four kids and none of them ever slept in our bed.

Jess (22:28.398)

Mm-hmm. Right. Exactly. No.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (22:42.564)

because the dog was there. But for me, it actually ended up being really helpful because I feel like the level of exhaustion that I had with many young children, I would have ended up not having that boundary, but I really needed that boundary in order to be able to, in order to sleep for myself and in order for them to learn how to sleep and in order for the dogs to still have that connection piece when we totally upended their lives by just rolling multiple new people. Ha ha ha.

Jess (23:13.899)

Yeah all of a sudden hear that, yeah, it's funny, it's funny to have watched him as they've grown and in their different stages and how he was when there were these like squalling newborns and where he was like, what, who is that? What is that sound? You know, cause you can prepare them, but like a sound on YouTube is not the same. It's just not, you know, it's not the same. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, now that they're, once they started crawling and now that they're walking and that's even, you know,

Dr. Ashley Blackington (23:31.758)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (23:38.372)

Right. Like a wha? Ha ha ha.

Jess (23:48.306)

it's just, it's just been funny to watch his response to them. He's pretty, he's pretty calm about it. But we also are very strict, like we don't allow them to really go near him, for the most part, unless maybe we're holding them already or something like that. So we really try to preserve Dio's life as much as we can.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (23:51.688)

Yeah, yeah, well, no, yeah, I mean, knowing that there's stuff that has to change and there's stuff that like you said, like he's earned the life that he has and that as they're coming up in it, it's not and I think too, like, you know, when I was when I was pregnant, I had people that were like, well, you're going to have a baby now and your dog will just be like the the, you know, the pet that lives in the living room. And I was like, I don't really think that you understand how much a part of my life that these dogs are and how important it is to me. And it really, I mean, it really made a huge difference in the way that our kids grew up from, like I joke that my kids poop dog hair like their second day home from the hospital because I was like, welcome, you know what I mean?

Jess (24:56.631)

Right, right. Yeah, this is our life.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:08.316)

But they have, yeah, but they have, you know, we have, now we have all these creatures living in our house. And it's just this different approach. And I don't notice that until we have kids that come over that don't have like animals and they're like, what is this? And it's just this idea of like, there's always somebody home. Like if it's the dog or the cat, I mean, our cat like goes out and makes friends in the neighborhood and stuff like that. Like cats are a whole different thing, whole different world. But that...

Jess (25:30.158)

Aww. Yes, that's a whole different, yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (25:36.236)

But that there's always somebody here, there's always somebody home, you know, you open the door, and it's just this idea of like, home is home. And the dog or dogs are so much a part of that. You know, I have one of my kids takes the dog out every morning and throws a football for him. Or if he's having a it has a hard day at school, he goes and plays with the dog in the backyard and things like that. And I think that impact and that level of importance like my he's he is not 16 months old, he was not doing that. Right.

Jess (26:10.281)

Right. Yeah, fair.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (26:30.96)

But it's that idea of like, you're really you're really showing and giving your kids the opportunity to exist in a space, grow up in a space where there are differences. And it could be a difference in a person, it could be a difference in you know, an animal that lives in your house or whatever, but that you're fostering empathy and understanding that people are different and that different living things have different needs.

Jess (26:43.074)

Right, and we want to balance those needs. And I think that goes back to the idea of expectations and the vision that we have for certain things. It was really helpful for me to, first of all, I got the same commentary, right? DO is not going to be as important anymore. That's right, that's what they're implying. They don't say it like that, but that's essentially what people have said, said the same thing to me too, especially with twins. They're like, oh my God, you're never gonna have time to spend time with your dog or, you know. And it really,

Dr. Ashley Blackington (27:03.598)

Yeah. You'll forget you have a dog.

Jess (27:13.634)

That has not been my experience. In fact, Dio has been, oh, I'm getting chills even about to say this, but he has been my lifeline in new motherhood, in postpartum time, right? He is what connects me to the person I was before I had kids. He is what has helped me not lose that because he is so impactful and he is such a huge part of my life and was before them and still is that sometimes his just presence, right, was the thing that kept me okay in certain moments, right? Just knowing like he was right there. And I really don't take that for granted. And I didn't go into it with expectations that he would adapt, right? That he would allow the kids to lay all over him, that he would lick their faces. Like I had no expectations for him and I don't expect him to accommodate them, especially at 10. You know, I'm like, whatever Dio needs, is what we're gonna, right, we're gonna, we're gonna accommodate that as a family. And the kids are gonna learn, you know, to do that, like you said, and have that empathy for what he needs, especially because again, he's earned it. He's 10 years old.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:14.821)

Right.

Jess (28:36.726)

He was here first. And, and I owe him, like, I can't even describe, I owe him so much. I owe him so much, not only as a new mom, but in the business I've built which exists because of him, which I love to do. Like Handlers and Humans is absolutely a passion project through and through and it's because of him and I can't even put into words like how much that dog this dog has given me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (28:53.108)

Yeah, I mean, it's really it's a real huge anchor, it sounds like for where you that idea of like coming back to yourself and figuring out like taking the taking the dog for a walk. No, you can't do that at 10 weeks. But that but that also, too, I feel like even that in that example, it's a way for you to remember that you need to take care of yourself.

Jess (28:57.546)

Yes. Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (29:22.36)

Because especially in that period of time where it's like, Okay, I have to get back to doing this and I have to do, you know, Well, I physically cannot do, so I won't. And it's not that I don't want to, it's just it's unsafe. And so that's, even in that, it's like a hard boundary of what you need to do in order to take care of yourself. And that as things change and as the kids get older and as that, what the day to day looks like, you still have this frame of reference that is Dio in being able to say, you know, like I remember my, I remember, you know, it's like the house is wild, right? Like everyone's yelling and someone's crying and it's just like things or whatever. And I would, I'd look at the dog and be like, oh my God. And they just sit there and they wag their tail. And it's like, remember when it was just us and we would like go for a run and the dog, you know, like tail wagging. I'm like, we can't do that right now. But like, I just want to remember, you know, what that yeah, that like there was a time in my life when not everyone was pooping at the same time. Like there was a time, right? It's like, wag, wag.

Jess (30:24.61)

that exists. Yeah. That's a saved right, right. And there will be a time again. I mean, I guess everyone will still poop, right? But perhaps you won't, right, exactly. Like perhaps you won't be responsible for that in the, you know, forever. So, but it was like such a mom moment we just had. But yeah, I mean, he, right, this is when it begins.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (30:41.489)

Mm-hmm. You don't have to be intimately involved in that. Yeah. The second half of your life.

Jess (31:03.754)

Yeah, I mean, same thing, right? I have two newborns losing their minds, you know, can't console them. You're fed, you're changed, you're what do you need, right? We've all had those moments. And I just look at Dio and he's laying there and I'm like, all right, like, we're gonna get through this. You and I have gotten through all kinds of things, like these every moment is not forever. And yeah, an anchor is such a good way to put it, he's been, and I've been, I'm so grateful for the human support that I have, right? My partner's been amazing, my family's been amazing. Dio has supported me in a very different way in that time. Right, and it's like just for me, right, is the other thing I think too, is that my partner and my family is also focused on the kids and the babies as they should be, and while supporting me, but that's my dog, like, that there's no one else he's looking at and following around the way he does with me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (31:41.176)

Yeah, it's a constant. Yeah, and that's really, it's really special to have that, to have that in your life. So when you started, so handlers and humans, so you go through this journey yourself and you are like, okay, I'm gonna start taking people on that are going through this similar, similar-ish kind of experiences in probably various different ways. Like, how does that? How do people, is there sort of a common theme or common touch point where people are like, okay, I think this is where I need to go? How do people find you and what is, are there common, like, hey, what's going on in my life that arise when people kind of darken your internet doorstep?

Jess (32:53.659)

There are, there's a lot of themes. I mean, so like I talked about before, expectations is one of them. I see that tripping up. Basically every client that I work with is expectations of what their life with their dog would be or what dog training will look like and how quickly they should progress and all those sorts of things. A lot of anxiety and a lot of self blame, a lot of guilt, a lot of shame that comes along with having a dog that has some behavioral challenges, right? Because you know, it feels like it reflects on you and people are very judgmental. There's a lot of stigma around having a dog with behavioral issues. People really don't get it unless they've lived it, I've noticed, right? Like maybe a little bit, but for the most part, until you've lived life with a dog that has a lot of challenges, like you just don't know how impactful that really is. So those are all the things that people come to me for, help with working through learning acceptance, learning to connect and find that joy, learning to balance their own needs, right? Cause they're all like I was where it's like all in on their dog, I'm doing all the training, I'm doing all of the reading about dog behavior and dog body language and reactive dog owners become dog experts and they don't mean to be, and they didn't set out to be, but they had to in order to live their life with their dog at all. And completely lose themselves in the process. So my work with them is to help them try to find that balance and find the joy with the dog that they have, you know, right here, right now, without the dog changing at all, right? Because you can always access that. It's just hidden, not easy to do. So coping with canines is what I call my work a little bit. It's like I have a course called that, and just, you know, teaching mindset strategies and grounding strategies and ways to communicate and advocate for yourself and for your dog. So those are all themes that come up a lot with the dog guardians that I work with.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (34:51.652)

Yeah, and how, and I think the really important word to point out in all of what you just said is should, because I think should is the wrecking ball of joy in so many things. It's just that like everything can be going really well. You know, you're owning your stuff, you're doing the things, you are managing the things, you are living.

Jess (34:58.265)

This is this life that you are creating day by day, and then all of a sudden these shoulds start storming through the palace. And it's like, how do we deal with that? So I think should is important.

Jess (35:25.555)

I call it a red flag word, right? If you hear yourself saying should or supposed to, always pause, always pause and evaluate that because chances are most of the time that's not a helpful thought to be having or an outlook to be taking. It's tough because should is tricky too, right? Sometimes we feel like it's motivating us, like I should get up and work out, and that's gonna motivate me, right? Like, you're never gonna shame yourself and should yourself into movement and motivation. And it's never gonna feel good. But it tricks us a little bit because when we tell ourselves that, we kind of feel like we're motivating ourselves, but we're really not. It's doing the opposite most of the time.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:13.06)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And where this should come from, it's like you're walking your reactive dog around the neighborhood and you start thinking to yourself, well, I should, you know, we do this every day, right? Like we walk every day. My neighbor has a dog that, um, lunches at Cars and she's had this dog for, I don't know, four years now, maybe, but she walks the dog every single day, three, four times a day.

Jess (36:32.663)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (36:42.62)

the same loop around she's retired. So, but she walks the dog every single day and every single day the dog lunges at a car that drives by and you know, I see her sometimes at the end of the walks and like there's a lot of construction that's going on in my neighborhood. So there's a lot of cars and there's a lot of trucks and there's a lot of things going on. And she's just like, you know, he is, she is who she is. And, but I think about that in that like, How many cars does this dog have to see before the dog stops lunging at the cars? And the answer is the dog's not gonna stop, probably. And what does that, like how does that, how can she, she has that, she doesn't have that should perspective. So for her taking the dog out, it's like, you know, brace yourself, dog jumps at car, car goes by, you know

Jess (37:34.435)

Yeah, I mean, sometimes they are gonna stop lunging at the cars and sometimes they're not. And you can't, I think the tough part is that you have to walk into the unknown with that, right? And it's the same with kids, like you don't know what they're gonna, what, right? When you're like, oh, this is a phase, will it be? I don't know, right? Like you have to be okay with the unknown of what the outcome will be or where you'll end up with them, you know, is something that you're struggling with going to be with you in your whole life with that dog? Or is it something that is going to get better at some point, right? We don't know that.

And so that's where creating sustainability in your life and relationship with your dog is, I think, the most important thing that you can do when you have a challenging dog, right? Because, you know, we have a decade give or take with our dogs if we're lucky, right? And so it's a long haul process to continue to show up for them, continue to manage what they're going through. And you don't know, you don't know if that dog will stop ever lunging at cars. You don't know if that will be with that owner forever. And so that's where I always talk about what are the skills that you can build internally to enjoy life with your dog in the longterm, if this never changes, and if it does, and it can sometimes, bonus, right? Great.

Jess (38:58.934)

But if you're committing to them regardless, then you need to do some of that inner work to make it sustainable for you to live life with a dog who has these behaviors for the next decade or whatever it is ahead of you. And I think that's where I try to help people focus is that bigger picture, right? So it's not about working on yourself so that your dog's behavior changes right now. It's about working on yourself so that you can live the best that you can with this dog for the time that this dog is with you.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (39:28.803)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (39:29.394)

I just posted this like, I really hesitated. I had this emotional reel that I made because I was thinking about DO turning 10. And so that's bringing up a lot for me. And I wrote, you know, reactivity, behavior problems, whatever it is, it's not forever because your dog is not with you forever as much as we wish they could be. And so, you know, how do you wanna approach your life with them now? And I think that really does also, it's another beautiful lesson with our kids too right like I need to create sustainability for me in my mindset my emotional well-being so that I can continue to show up for this little person who needs me in anything that they might bring to the table and it's going to be challenging sometimes whatever it is.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (40:12.676)

Yeah, right. And that, I mean, that's the idea of like, you can't control your dog's reactivity, but you can work on your own reactivity and how that benefits down the line. Do you have people that are, I wonder how many people that you have, like percentage-wise, not numbers-wise, but percentage-wise that are not parents of human people, but that come to you versus parents of human people that have a reactive dog.

Jess (40:45.074)

I would say 60, 70% of people are not human parents that I work with, but I do have a good handful of human parents and we do talk about the, you know, parallels that come up and the extra challenges, you know, that are there, right? So like I, having other kids over to my house to play with my twins, I have to think about so much management for Dio to be comfortable in that situation. And you know, that's not something that other people have to think about all the time, right? So there's definitely pieces that I work with human parents on and balancing the needs of their kids, the needs of their dog, their own needs. There's a lot to juggle, but I would say like more than half are not human parents. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (41:35.704)

Yeah. And I think too, like that's a it's an interesting. It's a really interesting period of people's lives when you go from being, you know, you to you and a partner or you and you and your dog. And that like the work doing that work there and how that sets you up down the line as a future human parent, like being able to say, because I think there's so much of a focus on like doing a good job.

when it comes to raising children specifically, right? Like you wanna be a good mom or you wanna be a good parent or whatever that is, but good is determined, good and should go along together, right? So that's all determined by like the Wizard of Oz. And so like nobody knows where this good comes from, but and nobody knows where should. Yeah, we're all like, we're just like, it's, yeah, I don't know.

Jess (42:06.924)

Right. Okay. but we're all under a lot of pressure about it. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (42:35.26)

So you have people that are the good and should that are that is following you around as a parent. However, if you go through this process and having a reactive dog, and I'm not saying everyone go out and see if you can find the most reactive dog, because it'll make you the best parent, not the advice I want to throw out there, but that people that are able to do this work and to do this work with you ahead of time being parents.

Jess (42:54.502)

Yeah. No.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (43:03.192)

it's in a way that's not, because parenting is so personal and being good and doing good and all of that is so at the core of like how we value ourselves as humans, right? Like how do you, how good are you at creating and nurturing the next generation of people is the, you know, is a lot of, there's a lot of value placed on that in society. And so if we are doing a good job there, then we're good. But if you go through that process where it is a dog, and that's not as much of a value system in society, right? Like, that's not like if you're a good dog parent or not a good dog parent, if you're not a good dog parent, then you're not a good person. Just to throw that bias in there. But if you're a good dog parent, you don't get that same like, esteem and acclaim within society. It's like, I am the best dog mom. You know, you always have that caveat with it.

Jess (43:50.063)

Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha.

Jess (43:59.534)

Right, right, right. True. Although I think the opposite is true though, if you're...

if you are seen as not being enough or not being good enough, there is a ton of shame and stigma thrown around towards, you know, dog lovers, dog parents, when other people who are also dog people think that they're not doing it right, or they're not doing enough or right. There's, there's definitely some, a lot of the should and the good in, in raising a dog as well. And I find that a lot, like a lot of the guilt and shame, like I'm not doing enough and I need to do more and I'm not doing it right. And it's my fault. And that's, oh, a lot of parenting stuff in that, for sure.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (44:34.728)

Yeah, yeah, shame, shame and guilt. I feel like shame and guilt is a whole series, like a whole mini series and how that it's like an introduction, right? Like it's, it's an introduction to should and an introduction to good and an introduction to this. And so having that having that experience where people can deal with that stuff in a way that's not at the core, like it's next to the core, but it's not it's not at the core, like how that sets people up to do better, like it worked for you. Like you do this work and eventually it comes around this way.

Jess (44:45.418)

Right, and I think that a lot of people who don't yet have human children, who have reactor dogs, who know that they want human children. So not everyone, obviously, that I work with wants to have a human child at some point. But I do have I have had a handful of clients who feel hesitant to move forward with having kids because of the challenges that they have with their dog and how much they see that impacting them and like their own mental health and how stressful that is. And they kind of think, you know, wow, I can't possibly handle if I'm struggling so much with my dog and I'm here to tell them like actually There's lessons you can learn here that can prepare you for this Experience even better because I'm down the line on that like I see that now I'm experiencing that now and I've had quite a few clients Tell me that was really helpful for them to hear Because they thought having a human child should be out of the cards for them because of the experiences That they were having with their dog and how tough that was for them and I was you know to say the opposite really, has been my experience that what I went through with him prepared me even more instead of making me shy away from it and think I couldn't handle it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (46:17.298)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and also knowing, I think the ability or the taking the steps to go and seek help is something that cannot be overstated is as important because that talking about guilt and shame that all exists in the corners of our behind closed doors in the corners of our houses. And so people that are already taking these steps to say like, I feel this way about having a reactive dog, I know I need help. And I need you to help me so that I can do a better job to help them, like those people are the ones I feel like that deserve the medals and all the accolades because if you're willing to ask for help when it comes to this, it seems it would make sense to me that those people further down the line would also be ones that would seek out help and be able to draw the similarities from one to the next one and really set themselves up for success, whatever that is.

Jess (47:04.106)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When I started Handlers and Humans, or when I wanted to start it, I still am not totally even over this thought process, but I was just like, this is a weird idea. No one's gonna be, right? Like I always tell that story. I'm like, I just thought it was like too specific and that, you know, it wouldn't, no one would really benefit from it. And obviously now I'm like in year three of it and I'm like, wow, okay, this is, first of all, I love doing this. I wanna do nothing else but this. And I can see that it is valuable and people do need that support. And I agree with you completely who are seeking out that support understand that nothing is ever just about their dog. Nothing is ever just about their child. It's never about one thing. It's always about a blend, a mix, a balance of your internal stuff and the external stuff and how those things are interacting. And we can get support on the external stuff. And we deserve support on our internal stuff too, whether it's about a dog or a child or a cat, because I'm sure cats could bring up some of this stuff too. You know, doesn't matter what the topic is. We are in the, yeah, yeah. It's funny, I grew up riding horses and I very much see similar stuff in the horse world. So I'm like, start talking to horse people too. Honestly, it's huge stuff there.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (48:35.677)

But we're in the dog business today. We are. Ha ha ha.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (48:47.48)

Yeah, oh, yeah, there's a lot of stuff there. And there's a lot of work that is done in very, very big service to people using horses and around horses and things like that. Yeah, that's true. So if people are thinking that like, I have this dog and I'm not sure what I need to be doing. Do you see people? So do you see people just where you are or do you work virtually or how?

Jess (48:51.831)

Yeah, so true. Yep.

Jess (49:16.874)

Yeah, yeah, I'm virtual all over anywhere. So because it's a coaching approach, it's more, it's not like a official therapy approach where I would spend years and years working with someone like it's more focused and niche and specific. So I do work virtually anywhere in the world. I have clients actually from all over, which has been really cool and fun for me. Yeah. And so I do, I have a community space where people can connect and get support for their experiences, for their human experiences. And in there we have group coaching calls, like emotional support group calls on Zoom, and anytime people can post and respond and ask for help and support and all of that. And then I do one-on-ones as well.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (49:40.22)

That's super fun. That's awesome. And so do you have, and you said you have a course that you do as well. And what's that?

Jess (50:13.191)

I do. Yep. I'm in the middle of revamping it, which is really exciting for me. I'm blending it with the community. So it's going to be a series of mini courses that you can access when you're part of the community versus having to like make this one big investment in like a six hour online course that will sit in your online course graveyard and never get looked at, which is what my experience is because I always do that. I'm like, oh, this course sounds cool. Let me get it. And then I don't listen to it.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (50:34.168)

Yeah.

Jess (50:40.478)

it's gonna be broken up into skill sets like mindset work and coping skills and working with the social, like the social stigma aspect. So whatever people need, whatever their specific challenge is, they can just take that piece of the mini course and get the group support of being part of the community. So I'm in the midst of that's in the works right now. So yeah, it's the course I already have, but I wanna deliver it in a way that I think would be more helpful for people.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:07.496)

that just more of a more targeted approach. I love the idea of having the community be a part of that too. Cause I think that's, you know, along with the course graveyard, people take courses and then they're like, that was great. And who do I talk to about this? Because, cause I'm on the internet. And so like, you know, you have no idea, like having, having clients all over the world and having courses that can go all over the world, but you still need that community piece.

Jess (51:13.81)

Mm-hmm. And that's it. Right. Exactly. Right.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:35.676)

And that's where you're going to find a lot of ongoing, I feel like ongoing support and things like that.

Jess (51:40.658)

Yeah, I'm really excited to put it out in that format. I already have one of the many courses up and so then the rest are on their way in the community. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (51:49.393)

When you're not chasing around 16 month old and taking do for walks and it's like carrying the one.

Jess (51:52.458)

Yeah, right, right. Seeing therapy, yeah, seeing therapy clients and training dog trainers on person centered dog training. I do that too. So I have a whole dog trainer program for working with the human skills that we learn in counseling programs. I try to teach dog trainers that stuff because they're dealing with stuff that therapists are dealing with, that's for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (52:03.545)

I love that.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (52:18.172)

Yeah, and that's a really invaluable resource because I'm sure that there are dog trainers out there who are like, okay, I know that this dog has hit the end of the line on the things that I can help with. And this person seems to not be wanting to look at this person. So how do I delicately and effectively refer this person to someone because it's not the dog.

Jess (52:30.088)

Right? Have that conversation. Right?

Jess (52:44.739)

Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (52:46.328)

And so you are an invaluable resource for all dog trainers that are like, no, it's not the dog, it's you.

Jess (52:48.93)

Well, thank you. Thanks so much. Yeah. Well, yeah, call me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (52:56.808)

I love it. And so, yeah, so I'm going to put all of the contact info in the show notes and things like that. So how, tell people how to get in touch with you and what that looks like and where to find you on the, on the internet.

Jess (53:01.678)

Yeah, I am most active on Instagram because I just prefer that platform. So Instagram is a great way to reach me. You can email me, hand and website with all the info of what I do and what I offer at hand Thank you. Yeah.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:15.09)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:27.204)

I love it. Love it. I love what you do. I love the parallels. I love the dogs. I love all the things. So I'm really excited that you were able to come back and maybe someday an AI can fix the last recording and I'll release it from the… Yeah, exactly. If there's an AI scrubbing thing, I don't even know. But anyways, thank you so much for coming and say hi to Dio for me. I just… perfect.

Jess (53:37.494)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:43.062)

Thank Dio over there too. Yeah.

Jess (53:53.81)

I will, he's snoozing. Thanks so much.

Dr. Ashley Blackington (53:57.36)

Ha ha ha!